Megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
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posted September 22, 2007 05:30 PM
24v starting system
Just wondering if anyone knows of a safe and sane way to build a 24v starting system on a 12 that operates normally as a 12 volt system and turns into a 24v system when the starter button is pushed. Seems like a big relay might do the trick.
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ninja12
Needs a job
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posted September 22, 2007 08:03 PM
simple as 1.2.3.4.
1. go to walmart and get small 12 V battery and 2 cables with the "O" on both ends.
Depending on where you put the extra battery you may on need 1 cable
2.pull the battery cover and the disconnect the hot starter wire at the 10 mm bolt on the battery box.
3. connect one end of your new cable to the 10mm bolt on the battery box and the other to the negative side of the new battery.
4. pull the orig starter cable back and router it safely thru frame to the Positive side of the new battery.
you may have to replace the cable from the postive side to the starter depending on where you put the battery.
The small battery will not recharge, and your bike will not start with it dead.
FYI .the relay is already built in and that circuit is only active when you hit the starter.
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Megabyte
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Posts: 1047
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posted September 22, 2007 09:11 PM
quote:
simple as 1.2.3.4.
1. go to walmart and get small 12 V battery and 2 cables with the "O" on both ends.
Depending on where you put the extra battery you may on need 1 cable
2.pull the battery cover and the disconnect the hot starter wire at the 10 mm bolt on the battery box.
3. connect one end of your new cable to the 10mm bolt on the battery box and the other to the negative side of the new battery.
4. pull the orig starter cable back and router it safely thru frame to the Positive side of the new battery.
you may have to replace the cable from the postive side to the starter depending on where you put the battery.
The small battery will not recharge, and your bike will not start with it dead.
FYI .the relay is already built in and that circuit is only active when you hit the starter.
Makes sense. Thanks for the directions
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted September 22, 2007 09:56 PM
I have a schematic somewhere that uses a couple DPDT relays and another solenoid that swaps the polarity of a second battery on startup to achieve 24V, then puts it back so it can charge at 12V during runtime.
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capt10ed
Expert Class
Posts: 327
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posted September 23, 2007 12:24 AM
tcchin
Could you please post that schematic? I think many 1270/1290 owners with a little advance in ignition would love know.
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aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
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posted September 23, 2007 11:37 AM
You still have to manually recharge the second battery,so with the battery tender connector wired on,I also use it for my bottle heater.
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted September 23, 2007 06:11 PM
quote:
I have a schematic somewhere that uses a couple DPDT relays and another solenoid that swaps the polarity of a second battery on startup to achieve 24V, then puts it back so it can charge at 12V during runtime.
I'd like to see that, but without the relay to power the starter, as soon as you put 12v to the secondary battery the starter will start , unless you do something before the starter relay.
Teach me grasshopper. 
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tcchin
Zone Head
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posted September 24, 2007 07:58 AM
http://www.xdotracing.com/ref/24vcircuit.jpg
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tcchin
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posted September 24, 2007 07:59 AM
Everything that I've added is between the stock solenoid and the starter.
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Megabyte
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Posts: 1047
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posted September 24, 2007 03:26 PM
quote:
I have a schematic somewhere that uses a couple DPDT relays and another solenoid that swaps the polarity of a second battery on startup to achieve 24V, then puts it back so it can charge at 12V during runtime.
Thanks for the diagram! Any instructiions, Part #'s would also be greatly appreciated.
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We First make our habits and then our habits make us.
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted September 24, 2007 04:25 PM
For the DPDT relay, you can use something like McMaster-Carr #69585K66. The solenoid just has to be something robust, like the stock part (27002-1101) or a Suzuki part (31800-41G00) or even a generic Ford starter solenoid. The battery can be just about any sealed 12VDC battery down to 3 amp hrs. that will package well for you. You'll also need a couple heavy-gauge wires to connect the original solenoid to the starting battery to the new solenoid to the starter. This will be dependent on where you locate these components.
I guess I should say "Use at your own risk" somewhere too...
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Megabyte
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posted September 25, 2007 06:48 AM
quote:
For the DPDT relay, you can use something like McMaster-Carr #69585K66. The solenoid just has to be something robust, like the stock part (27002-1101) or a Suzuki part (31800-41G00) or even a generic Ford starter solenoid. The battery can be just about any sealed 12VDC battery down to 3 amp hrs. that will package well for you. You'll also need a couple heavy-gauge wires to connect the original solenoid to the starting battery to the new solenoid to the starter. This will be dependent on where you locate these components.
I guess I should say "Use at your own risk" somewhere too...
Thanks again for the info. I'm going to have to think about this one 
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JimmyD
Parking Attendant
Posts: 1
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posted October 03, 2007 09:53 PM
You need a parallel switch from Agritech Imports (501-860-6194 during business hours). They import a box for Belarus tractors that converts two 12V batteries to a 24V starting system when the key is turned. It is made for better cranking of the diesel in cold weather. It works very well as long as you do not hook it up backwards when installing. It will allow 12V alternators and battery chargers when in the run position and 24V only when cranking.
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ridgeracer
Pro
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posted October 10, 2007 04:57 PM
 Edited By: ridgeracer on 10 Oct 2007 18:00
quote:
http://www.xdotracing.com/ref/24vcircuit.jpg
This is a clever circuit but it kind of makes me nervous because there is no guaranteed 'break before make'. In other words If the charging relay fails you dead short the battery or if the solenoids have a quicker contact time than the charging relay you momentarily dead short the battery.
A safer circuit using the same components wired differently would be...
In this circuit the solenoids are not energized until the secondary battery is disconnected from the primary battery. And if any of the relay/solenoids fail the system fails safe. In the original circuit you just 'hope' the battery disconnects before the solenoids engage.
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Megabyte
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posted October 10, 2007 05:41 PM
RR,
I was hoping you would chime in I got to do it.
Thanks!!!!
quote:
quote:
http://www.xdotracing.com/ref/24vcircuit.jpg
This is a clever circuit but it kind of makes me nervous because there is no guaranteed 'break before make'. In other words If the charging relay fails you dead short the battery or if the solenoids have a quicker contact time than the charging relay you momentarily dead short the battery.
A safer circuit using the same components wired differently would be...
In this circuit the solenoids are not energized until the secondary battery is disconnected from the primary battery. And if any of the relay/solenoids fail the system fails safe. In the original circuit you just 'hope' the battery disconnects before the solenoids engage.
____________
We First make our habits and then our habits make us.
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted October 10, 2007 06:28 PM
just make sure the starter motor insulation is rated for 24VDC AND the motor is rated for the DUTY CYCLE (Current per unit of time) being demanded of it or bad things will eventually happen.
If you are experiencing voltage droop due to the extra compression torque on the motor you may consider a larger diameter main starter wire with accompanying higher-duty solenoid, OR utilizing the 'starter' battery in PARALLEL with the OEM battery. This will provide a larger current source which should easily prevent voltage droop and produce a more consistent and reliable start. It also takes care of the recharging aspect of things since the bike's alternator can take care of that. Just remember that it may take up to twice as long to recharge after a start cycle as it would with a single battery installed. Granted with two in parallel you gain efficiency during the start which may result in a lower overall amp-hour discharge.
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Megabyte
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Posts: 1047
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posted October 10, 2007 07:50 PM
Thanks for the great info.
Many years ago, I was helping a friend get an old beater going. He had purchased a new battery and cables, but nothing we did would get the engine to turn over. We finally realized that he had purchased 12 volt cables, and we were working with a 6 volt system. After installing 6 volts cables, which were quite a bit heavier, the engine turned over like a charm. I've thought about using heavier cables on my 12, but other guys have been there and done that and always end up with a 24 volt system. I don't know if they've had any of the issues you mentioned, but it would be worth investigating.
Thanks again
quote:
just make sure the starter motor insulation is rated for 24VDC AND the motor is rated for the DUTY CYCLE (Current per unit of time) being demanded of it or bad things will eventually happen.
If you are experiencing voltage droop due to the extra compression torque on the motor you may consider a larger diameter main starter wire with accompanying higher-duty solenoid, OR utilizing the 'starter' battery in PARALLEL with the OEM battery. This will provide a larger current source which should easily prevent voltage droop and produce a more consistent and reliable start. It also takes care of the recharging aspect of things since the bike's alternator can take care of that. Just remember that it may take up to twice as long to recharge after a start cycle as it would with a single battery installed. Granted with two in parallel you gain efficiency during the start which may result in a lower overall amp-hour discharge.
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We First make our habits and then our habits make us.
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted October 11, 2007 08:27 AM
With the 24v starting It spins and starts so fast that even if bigger is better it's not needed.
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted October 11, 2007 08:30 AM
RR don't you want to make this in a easy install package for me to test.
I'll pay all cost associated with the test.
Please,
G
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Megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
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posted October 11, 2007 09:25 AM
+1
quote:
RR don't you want to make this in a easy install package for me to test.
I'll pay all cost associated with the test.
Please,
G
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted October 12, 2007 07:57 AM
Edited By: tcchin on 12 Oct 2007 09:00
RR - Thanks for the update to the circuit. As a lowly mechanical guy, I'm kinda out of my league when it comes to electrical stuff. Also, I was trying to leave as much OEM wiring in place as possible in my original circuit...not to make excuses or anything.
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Megabyte
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Posts: 1047
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posted October 12, 2007 12:19 PM
Edited By: Megabyte on 12 Oct 2007 14:44
Personally, I appreciated your input. Your post was exactly what was looking for. I also appreciate RR's update. Now all I need to do is figure out how to do it
quote:
RR - Thanks for the update to the circuit. As a lowly mechanical guy, I'm kinda out of my league when it comes to electrical stuff. Also, I was trying to leave as much OEM wiring in place as possible in my original circuit...not to make excuses or anything.
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We First make our habits and then our habits make us.
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