KZScott
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posted July 02, 2007 09:31 AM
Broken Clutch parts
Well Im having some big problems with my 12 :x
Everything was going great up til thursday, I just got a Shinko u soft mounted and a new extended brake line from brocks put on and i was out for a few shake down runs on the road before the races on friday night, sat and sun....
I was geared 17 51 just to see what would happen :lol: (hoping to get all 6 gears in the 1/4) and when it wasnt spinning(cold pavement and extended about 7 in) it pulled HARD. i had it up to redline in 6th, im guessing 165 mph or so with that gearing???? (it showed something like 210 on the speedo :lol: ) anyways getting to the bad part, i had the clutch pulled in as i was slowing down to turn in a driveway and was in 1st (clutch in) when the rpms shot up(like i let out the clutch) grabbed the lever a couple times and nothing. I figued the cable snapped so i very carefully turned in a wide driveway (a few more houses up the road) and limped home in 1st (only a few hundred feet). I thought the clutch cable snapped, but when i got back to the house and the bike was off i could see it was no such luck, the rod going into the clutch cover was still being activated by the lever so that ment internal problems :x so i took of the plastics and drained the oil and popped off the clutch cover. a picture is worth a thousand words, so have a look:
not pretty eh? I found a couple small pieces of metal, cleaned it out and tried to find a part in time. there was nothing open at this point in the day (supper time) so i decided to call around friday morning to try and get something last minute for the races. turns out nobody stocks this part locally and i wouldnt be able to get it untill middle of the next week. NO GOOD i need it later that day! so i decided to try and fix the part myself, i had the metal built back up with a mig welder and i dremmeled it back to the correct shape and size. so it was working and i put the bike back together, at this point i got a call back about a used part that came out of a wrecked bike and decided to get that just incase later that day as it was located past the drag strip. so i trook the bike out for another run and the piece lasted about 5 min :x . i guessed that the original metal was a lot harder than the weld so i loaded up the bike and took it to the track still broken. went and got the used part and had it together just in time to get tech'd and i was going to be the very last pass of the night (9pm) well i got up to the line and heard a couple wierd chirps, sounded like brakes squeeking, and then it felt normal so i tried a launch, it lit the tire up in 3 gears and felt really wierd so i grabbed the clutch, NOTHING AGAIN :x and shut of the bike as i pulled off out of the groove. towed it back to the trailer and went home  :
now, thinking more about what was going on, i think i have bigger issues than just bad clutch release rods or whatever that part is that is all chewed up. Im thinking that i have a bad bearing or something is letting the baskert move sideways enough so that the puller rod isnt enguaging all of the release rod, its just catching the edge and breaking. i didnt really pay much attention to these 2 marks on the clutch cover before, but i think its from the basket moving and rubbing
all these pics were taking friday morning, i havent pulled the bike apart after breaking again at the track
the good news is that i know that i have a muzzy basket, just not sure about the hub, springs ect...
opinions, comments?????
thx
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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buddy
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Posts: 335
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posted July 02, 2007 11:07 AM
 Edited By: buddy on 2 Jul 2007 12:08
Thats a stock basket. The puller (piece that comes through the pressure plate) looks a little worn, but not much. Might check the needle bearings right behind the pressure plate. If they're bad, the puller may have torn up the release rod.
Check the bearings inside the clutch case that the release rod rides in also.
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VincentHill
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posted July 02, 2007 12:30 PM
Also, the "POSITION" of the Clutch arm that the Cable is attached to makes ALL of the difference in the world. This postion is "ONLY" Controlled by STack Height! You want the arm in a position where the piece that broke is about 50 to 60% ENgaged BEFORE You start pulling the cluthc pack apart. When fully disengaged this part should be 80 to 100% around the CLutch Pull Shaft.
How would you know any of this? You mark the position of the arm when all of the play is taken out of the lever on the cover with everything hooked up. then remove the cover and look to see what position the part is in. If the front edge is not 50 to 60% (Just past the Middle or right at the Middle / center of the shaft you have too low of a clutch stack height.
Also a Stock clutch Basket will not take much abuse before the fingers break off. Get the Billet basket before you have real problems. I always carried several of those parts but now have the MTC Set up and none of these problems
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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KZScott
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posted July 02, 2007 02:48 PM
Shit, a guy at the track that runs a 2000 said that the stock basket was like a steel colour (a lot darker) and if mine was aluminum that it was the muzzys basket.
I also thought that the gear at the back of the basket looked different than the parts diagrams(kawi.com)....it looks like 1 solid gear in the diagrams, and its clearly 2 that are lined up on my basket, a thick and thin one :S....
just trying to get this figured out guys, the PO told me this thing had a Muzzy clutch(and wasnt specific).....
Buddy, any idea of what caused the basket to have appeared to rub the cover?
VH, great info, any pics of what you are talking about? this stuff is pretty new to me..... I dont want to fuck it up a 3rd time lol
thx
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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buddy
Expert Class
Posts: 335
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posted July 02, 2007 03:28 PM
Edited By: buddy on 2 Jul 2007 17:06
The last fiber you have in the basket will not allow the pressure plate to go in any further. I don't have a 12 anymore, but I think it is supposed to be lined up with the rest of the fibres and steels. When it is lined up properly, you should measure your stack height for proper length. As it is, the pressure plate can't compress the plates, resulting in a clutch that will not engage.
I still have a manual so I am going to go look at it and check that I am correct on the plate being out of alignment. If I am wrong, I will post that shortly.
Edit: I guess I was installing my plates wrong the whole time I had the 12. The manual shows the last fibre installed as you have it. It probably would be allright that way if the stack height of 55.4 to 57.1 mm was ok, but if the plates in back of that last fibre are worn, they won't be able to compress.
As to the rubbed case, unless that was something that was done before you got your bike, the only thing I could think of that would cause the basket to move would be the large nut inside the hub that keeps the whole thing attached. If that came loose, tho, it would probably shake you off the bike just before the whole side of the motor broke off.
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buddy
Expert Class
Posts: 335
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posted July 02, 2007 04:23 PM
In redemption of myself, I replaced the stock basket with a billet basket immediatly upon purchase of my 12. I don't think there was an option to put that last fibre out of alignment with the rest of the fibres with the billet basket.
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VincentHill
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posted July 02, 2007 05:35 PM
Buddy is right ! The "Off Set" Fiber can be a problem and the Billet basket soes not allow that! Second, look at your Big gear behind the basket in the pictures! Note the back end of the gear looks a little different>> That is the split gear that keep the backlash out of that assembly. If you jabve to remove the basket take a Punch about 1/4 inch diameter tapered and rounded in the end and drive it into the hole to take the tension off the gear and slide the basket right out!
Do nothing without a service manual EVER! Did you remove the last small clutch plate and spring (The curved piece of metal) that will give you more clutch surface! You do need to have the correct height and at the tall end of the measurements!
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dougmeyer
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moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted July 02, 2007 07:30 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 2 Jul 2007 20:37
You seem to have a completely stock clutch.
The initial failure was the result of not positioning the notch in the actuator shaft properly on the pull rod lik VH said.
Take it all out of the bike and inspect everything, comparing it to the SERVICE MANUAL.
If you want to stay with a stocker, at a minimum you'll replace ALL the plates (or measure them to be sure of their thickness and condition), replace the pull rod, the puller actuator shaft. Carefully check the pull rod roller bearing and washer in the hat. I suspect that, since you have a stock clutch (and thought you had a Muzzy clutch that would take the abuse) someone may have also cooked and warped the steels causing the stack height to grow and putting undue pressure on the puller actuator shaft thereby (technical term) fucking it all up.
I suggest you really do get a muzzy clutch kit and, unless your basket is perfect, a Muzzy billet basket as well. Oh yeah and a SERVICE MANUAL. Really. 
Doug
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MadMike
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posted July 02, 2007 08:23 PM
You Really really need a Billet Basket!!!
____________
200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted July 02, 2007 09:38 PM
stack height too low. when you put the new puller in it will NOT grab the center shaft deep
enough. The lower the stack height the farther out on the tip of the puller teeth the center makes contact.
look at the last fiber almost bottomed out.
If you try to JUST replace that puller, get two ! The first won't last long enough to fool you.
Pull the center shaft out and inspect the inside of the hole for burs.
If you have any burs polish them out with a dremel , then replace the puller, center shaft, and roller bearing.
Looks like the center BURNED thru that puller, right?
p.s. Get a billet basket .
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woppi
Pro
Posts: 1362
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posted July 02, 2007 11:16 PM
you need the right one !!!
woppi
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nox
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted July 03, 2007 05:12 AM
I never broke a basket, even with 1.32 short times........., but I hear I was lucky.........
Still running stock clutch fibers and steels, just took out the cushions, and running all standard plates and fibers............
If you have a lock up and tune it right, you dont need all that muzzy crap, other than a good billet basket.............
hundreds of passes in the 1.30s and 1.40s, and still the stock fibers check out within spec, other than the one I broke, and that was my fault on clutch tune up on one pass, woudl have been like some fool holding the clutch to 330..........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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KZScott
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posted July 03, 2007 07:37 AM
you guys are good! damn i was really hoping that it was a muzzys, looks like thats on the wishlist before nitrous now..... could maybe the hub be a muzzy piece and i would just need a basket? (assuming everything else is ok)
OR would it be a good idea to look for a lock up?(and basket) i do plan on running this hard at the track, but i want it to be streetable, can a lock up be used on the street without too much trouble?
I have a downloaded version of the service manual but my computer is crap and its a big hassle to use... anyone know where i can get an actual book?
I guess im lucky its holding together, the PO was running this bike with a slick and bars, i really need to upgrade this thing before it explodes.... i want to get it running 9.00's by the end of the summer with a pipe, nitrous, and air shifter. im sure that wont be easy on stock parts!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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VincentHill
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posted July 03, 2007 07:49 AM
I also have the Computer vesion but bought the Book from the dealer! Ron Ayers is the cheapest on the internet.
"IF" You have a Muzzy Hub, it will have holes drilled in it and Grooves on the inside of the Hub and the Main Bearing race with have 2 notches and the hole all of the way through for extra Oil
I am tighter than most people here and I "Made" the entire Muzzy hub and drilled the center bearing sleeve and got the 2.0 steel plates all myself. WHen I needed more plates, I bought the entire Muzzy upgrade because the price is so low, it is cheaper than doing it all yourself! If you plan on NOS, then you MUST Get the Basket because stock has broken the basket! NOX may have the best possible casting in the world and you may not. Billet is Billet and the difference between the Best and worst are a few % In Casting, then difference is a Lot more! DO not ruine everything for being impatient. Even at 63 I am subject to this problem and it is VERY Expensive to give into it!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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madmike
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posted July 03, 2007 09:38 AM
I know guys that have blown baskets from just street riding... serious weak point... Nox was extremely lucky!!!
and look around for a used manual!! I have found a couple since I beat mine up so much... with notes and oil on my fingers...
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200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted July 03, 2007 12:54 PM
I exploded 2 stock 2000 baskets the first year.
last one caused enough damage to the inside of the clutch cover that I knew how lucky I was. I heard the later baskets were better and oiled the fibers better.
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nox
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted July 03, 2007 02:48 PM
yeah, never hear much about the 02 and ups doing it.........
Mine is an 02. I also carry a 4 leaf clover in my back pocket, no shit.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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ZX12-5807
Expert Class
Posts: 137
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posted July 11, 2007 08:12 PM
I am having the exact same problem with my 12. I have a billet basket, drilled hub, stock springs, and a Muzzy clutch pack installed. I have replaced the roller bearings in the clutch assembly and the bearings in the clutch cover that the actuator arm ride on. I have made sure that the actuator arm and the puller rod are attached properly. I have also polished the puller rod where it goes into the trans. input shaft and polished the inside of the input shaft.
I measured the stack height of a new muzzy stack and it is right at the minimum according to the manual.
This problem did not exist until after the engine was rebuilt and the trans.was race cut.
I am still looking for a fix.
____________
2001 ZX12 1287cc
2001 ZX12 1317cc Lee's head
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VincentHill
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posted July 12, 2007 05:21 AM
quote:
I am having the exact same problem with my 12. I have a billet basket, drilled hub, stock springs, and a Muzzy clutch pack installed. I have replaced the roller bearings in the clutch assembly and the bearings in the clutch cover that the actuator arm ride on. I have made sure that the actuator arm and the puller rod are attached properly. I have also polished the puller rod where it goes into the trans. input shaft and polished the inside of the input shaft.
I measured the stack height of a new muzzy stack and it is right at the minimum according to the manual.
This problem did not exist until after the engine was rebuilt and the trans.was race cut.
I am still looking for a fix.
That is the Problem! At the MIN, the front edge of the Actuator is just starting to bite the Puller and will wear out the Part! Set the stack at the MAX and the Problem is gone because the Acutator is further around in the sweet spot of the puller
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KZScott
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posted July 12, 2007 06:22 PM
Update, got the bike back home, things are looking up (i think theres a little muzzy in there after all)
got some pics for the experts to analyse to make sure lol
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted July 12, 2007 06:47 PM
That looks like my muzzy hub and sleeve, if I remember right.
The muzzy kit also comes with 3 heavy springs. Are all 6 springs the same?
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted July 12, 2007 07:07 PM
Correcto. Muzzy hub. You have a "Muzzy Clutch Kit" , but not basket. Whoever installed it last, though did not do the stack correctly. How thick are the steels?
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KZScott
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posted July 12, 2007 07:10 PM
yes all the springs are the same, and im quite sure they are 6 muzzy springs. i was comparing them to some spares a guy had in his tool box and they were like the heavy ones he had, the lighter springs he had were also a bit shorter
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
KZScott
Needs a life
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Posts: 7235
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posted July 12, 2007 07:13 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 12 Jul 2007 20:27
will check out the steels asap, just got a new digi caliper
im getting 1.9_mm or so....that sound right? is there a special way to measure the steels?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted July 13, 2007 04:21 AM
That Litle Notch on the Sleeve is what Muzzy does after they Drill the hole all of the way through!
You may be sqeezing the Caliper too hard and getting the thinner reading or you may have lost material, but my bet is the "USAGE" of the Caliper
Put up a Pic of this Billet basket you are getting
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