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BIKELAND > FORUMS > ZX12R ZONE.com > Thread: ZX-12 detuned at factory NEW TOPIC NEW POLL POST REPLY
ridgeracer


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posted October 17, 2006 04:54 AM        
ZX-12 detuned at factory

Supra asked me to post this dyno chart for him...



I'll let him explain its significance.

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supra5677


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posted October 17, 2006 04:58 AM        
Fearsom K been saying for years that the bike was detuned from the factory. He also said that the bike was dynoed at 176 horsepower. Now heres the dyno graph to prove it. The graph also shows a STD version at 165 horsepower which is obviously the version we all bought. Looking at the power curve you can see that these motors HAVE DIFFERENCES..

The main diifference I see is 150 horsepower at the limiter and 173 horsepower at the limiter. The red graph shows the increase with ram air...

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supra5677


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posted October 17, 2006 04:59 AM        
Excuse me green graph shows increase with ram air.. Obviously Kawasaki has a ram air dyno..
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ridgeracer


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posted October 17, 2006 05:21 AM        
Any idea what the notations,

32 38B 42L 50-54 R indicates on the run titles?

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supra5677


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posted October 17, 2006 05:42 AM        
Ive been trying to figure that out for about a year. Its either 1 a different exhaust canister but unlikely. 2 I think its just some project code number that they use. I wish I could fax this to someone at kawi to tell us what it means...

Bottom line is below 5500 rpms the production version is stronger than the "R" version. Most of the time this is indicative of DIFFERENT CAM PROFILES.. Since the 12r gains so much from a good exhaust system, I would bet the cam profiles on the exhaust side mainly is different...

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supra5677


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Posts: 1273
posted October 17, 2006 05:52 AM        
Question:

Has anybody taken a box stock 12r.. Advanced the timing 5 degrees and put the intake cam on the exhaust side, and a pc3? The before mentioned should net 11RWHP..

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supra5677


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posted October 17, 2006 05:57 AM        
Doug?
Rob Muzzy?

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stef12rr


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Posts: 144
posted October 17, 2006 06:29 AM        
is that Advancer your are talking about


http://secure.mycart.net/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=2334457&showprevnext=1

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ridgeracer


Pro
Posts: 1309
posted October 17, 2006 06:31 AM        
I'm pretty sure the charcters after the green are Katakana Ra Mu A Tsu

Atsu is 'pressure'
Ramu slang for Ram?

But we already knew that.

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supra5677


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posted October 17, 2006 07:01 AM        
yes ignition advancer. The closes graph I seen to this is Y2KZX12R;'s graph with his Y2k mods. The biggest difference is the peak power and how long the bike holds it. With Y2K mods the bike still falls after 10,000 rpms..
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Y2KZX12R


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posted October 17, 2006 09:21 AM        Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 17 Oct 2006 17:48
Let me dig up my stock-modded-piped dynoruns.... I'll put them up.

Geen is factory stock.
Brown is all the "Y2K" mods.
Blue is with a Yosh pipe, 102.5/101 cam timing, no pc-lll.

Eventually I got it to 181/101with cam timing changes and other minor tweaking but that graph isnt in this one.
I dont think there was any "de-tuning" or "restriction" done to the bike for production. This is all the regular tuning tricks that have been going on for years. Nothing really "new".


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supra5677


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posted October 17, 2006 12:53 PM        
sorry y2k this chart comes from the FACTORY not our tuning. Re read
your silver book On our first dyno run we got 165 hp. Your 163
horsepower is right on with PRODUCTION specs. There is clearly an R version
which was forbidden to us. And if this graph isnt NEW then why hasnt it
been posted before?

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dougmeyer


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posted October 18, 2006 01:20 AM        
This is ridiculous. It's all semantics. My Corvette Z06 is 405 hp (FW) from the factory. I do air and exhaust, retune and its 440. The "new" one is 505. Am I to conclude that I was screwed when I bought the 405 hp version? Could not The General have given me a 430 hp version, a 500 hp version? Or NOT goven me a 405 hp version, but only offered the "std" 385 hp version? Of course.
We bought what they offered. Do you honestly think that there is some sort of implicit responsibility for a manufacturer to offer the combination that produces the maximum available power? Of course not. They picked the combination that they liked for many reasons. Cost, ease of production, emissions (noise & exhaust), reliability & possible future warranty costs, worldwide fuel compatibility, marketing considerations, etc.
What we bought, the ZX1200 A1, is still the fasteset OUT OF THE BOX motorcycle ever produced. Now, the press intro WAS botched, that's for sure. But, that's another story.
Supra NONE of this is new. We talked so much about this topic in 2000 my fingers wore down.
Doug

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supra5677


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posted October 18, 2006 01:33 AM        
Ok Mr. Meyer thanks for your input..

I guess my question is how do we get 175-176 RWHP out of our STOCK zx12r's without removing the stock exhaust system?


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dougmeyer


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posted October 18, 2006 02:14 AM        Edited By: dougmeyer on 18 Oct 2006 10:14
You don't.
Well, You could mill the head, but you'd have to take off the stock exhaust system for a while and put it back on.


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supra5677


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posted October 18, 2006 02:19 AM        
or just advance the timing, tune the fuel with the blueford box or powercommander, and put the intake cam on the exhaust side too... right? 20 plus horsepower at the limiter will yield higher top speeds..
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Zaphod Breeblebox


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posted October 18, 2006 02:37 AM        
When I bought my ZX-12R new in 2000, the paperwork indicated a manufacturer's claimed CRANK horsepower of 178 hp.

Figuring in a 15-hp drivetrain loss, 163 hp is right on the money.

There is no mystery in any of this, never has been.
____________
Zaphod
Y2K ZX-12R

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dougmeyer


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posted October 18, 2006 05:55 AM        
Supe-
But the goal is not to produce the highest top speed, is it. The motorcycle as you describe it may very well have had characteristics or issues in the areas I mentioned above......
So, as always, what you get is a compromise
D.

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supra5677


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posted October 18, 2006 06:42 AM        
agreed. I think my purpose was to acknowledge that such a version did in
fact EXIST. Kawasaki's formula is the bore size determines the valve size,
the valve size determines the cam profile. I cross checked this formula
with the 00 zx9r and it checked out, except with the exhaust cam.
BTW the zx11 with .362 lift cams on both sides are actually larger than the
12r cams...

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dougmeyer


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posted October 18, 2006 07:30 AM        
....one of the reasons the ZX-11 engine was particularly bad ass, as evidenced by my 200+ hp, 199 mph, 1140.

Supe- The problem I have with this whole line of thinking is exemplified by your use of the word "version", which suggests that there was a completed, ready to sell motorcycle that was somehow set aside for another.
In this sense there was no "version", only many combinations assembled during testing before the specs for the ZX-1200A1 were forzen.
Like I said, semantics.

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blitzkrieg


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posted October 18, 2006 08:22 AM        
Interesting thread nonetheless but I think the reason this question has been and will continue to be asked is that the A1 was going to be the bike "that kicked the Busa's ass". Stock.

In all the magazines.

Those of us that own and know the bike know that every comparo done it was so close in all speed categores that it was laughable if it didn't hurt so much because in the press the Busa usually "edged" the 12 out by 2-3 mph at the top or .10 or less in the quarter.

But, and it's a big but, look at the mileage Suzuki got out of the press.

We all know that with some very minor tweaks and a couple hundred dollars the 12 will show the Busa it's tailight (dollar for dollar on both bikes) but it still begs the question of if Kawasaki wanted to knock Suzuki off throne - and I am certain they could have - why did they choose not to.

This question will go on forever, and will happen again if Suzuki builds a zx14 beater and Kawasaki doesn't respond. Or vice-versa.
____________
"BTW....You need to get a girlfriend who's last name isn't .jpg"

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supra5677


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posted October 18, 2006 08:53 AM        
I agree with you Doug on the term VERSION. I only say this because
the graph designates the power curve with an R. Lets just call it a MOCK
UP. Horsepower simulation calculations with Rickey Gadsons pre
production quarter mile runs 9.52 @ 146.97mph show 178RWHP. His later
slower runs also simulate horsepower numbers in the low 160,s. If we follow
the info from Keith Parnell the bike was running into stability problems at
high speeds. Heck my 02 needs a damper it gets squarrlly up top. Look how
long it took Kawi to make a factory steering damper on the 10r. Bottom line
in many ways the motor on the 12r seems to have been ahead of its
chassis.Safety reasons seems to be the issue. (what happened with the press
release.??? Maybe this can show the disparity with the quarter mile runs of
CHIP RISH 9.57 @ 146 and RICKEY GADSON.

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dougmeyer


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posted October 18, 2006 02:36 PM        
Supra,
Maybe you missed this, but I have the second pre-pro engine of the two released by KMC(one to Rickey and one to me) in my garage. THEY ARE NO BETTER THAN THE PRODUCTION VERSIONS, with only insignificant differences.
I was there when RIckey ran the 9.52. I worked on the bike. It had NEVER BEEN APART. It had A STOCK CLUTCH. It'sTHE RIDER.
Remember, I ran the bikes at Maxton in July '00 deep into the rough shutdown area- no steering damper- no problems, then later at Bonneville in the high 190's while burning pistons and experiencing abrupt "power losses" (this was pre-power commander) again with no stability problems.
Blitz
The only reason the 12 didn't get the rep it deserves is because of the never-to-be- repeated 194 mph Cycle World test, (widely held within the industry to have been a ringer) coupled with a very poorly executed intro orchestrated by the Japanese and fought by KMC marketing personnel at the highest levels.
Doug

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supra5677


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posted October 19, 2006 01:05 AM        
thanks for the info on the Gadson bike. Last question how then do
you explain the 176 RWHP dyno graph from KHI?

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matt sterbator


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posted October 19, 2006 03:34 AM        
quote:
Last question how then do
you explain the 176 RWHP dyno graph from KHI?


Probably the same reason my stock 12 dyno'd 171hp with nothing but an advancer, then 170hp with a custom mapped Akrapovic, then 164hp, 174hp.

Same reason my 1287 made 184hp, 206hp, and 195hp.
____________
Some day, you're going to run out of some days

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