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BIKELAND > FORUMS > ZX12R ZONE.com > Thread: Hacking the Planet one ZX-12 ECU at a time. NEW TOPIC NEW POLL POST REPLY
dubious


Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
posted June 06, 2006 01:50 AM        
I couldn't care if it was for his EGO or not... it is interesting, and some of us are learning new things!

BF... please leave this alone, let him continue!
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.

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blueford


Needs a job
Posts: 2984
posted June 06, 2006 02:15 AM        
Dubious some day you'll have to tell me why you picked that screen name.

OK you guys are right, I hate to stand out in the crowd

Where's the fawning line form? "What I have to pick a number?"

OK I'm in line now, about 50 back, "Hey you guys at the front can you hear me?"

"FAWN- FAWN AND MORE FAWN"

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ridgeracer


Pro
Posts: 1309
posted June 06, 2006 10:05 AM        Edited By: ridgeracer on 6 Jun 2006 17:15
quote:
Perhaps Doug Meyer needs some advice on chain lube? SHIT, dripping with fucking EGO.


Blueford, take a deep breath, relax, and try reading my post again. The context of the Doug Meyer quote is that I needed advice like the red wire is usually positive as much as Doug Meyer would need advice about anything to do with motorcycles let alone chain lube. I would never presume to tell Mr. Meyer anything.

quote:
If he had the right disassembler and he received the code, so what? It not going to say "this does this" "this is for the stupid button" 01000101110001111000001010101011001010.



If you were talking about some windows code you might be right. The binary does not contain any labels, variable names, or comments. When the code says take a number, add 5 to it, and store it over here you have no way of knowning what the original number is suppossed to represent, why its adding 5 instead of say 10, or why it stored it where it did. It could be the number of hit points in a game of Quake or the number of seconds till the ICBMs launch

But this is Firmware, not software. The power MOSFETs that fire the injectors are physically connected to a pin on the CPU. That pin has an address in the cpu that never changes. I can tell by looking at the circuit that when you write a 1 to that address the injector opens, when you write a 0 it closes. When I see that address in the code I know it is injector code and I can tell when the code wants the injector on and when it wants it off. I don't need it to 'say' anything. Same goes for the ignition coils, and all the sensors TPS, air temp, bike down, gear position etc.

Without the ECU board the code would be nearly impossible to decipher. The software was written to run the board and board therefore restricts and defines the software's function. The ECU board itself is the Rosetta stone to the code's secrets

quote:
THIS IS ABOUT RIDGY'S EGO


Duh! I'm not doing it for money. Why else would I do it but for bragging rights and the respect of my peers. How am I different from the guys who take their bikes to the Salt Flats and try to be the fastest, or the guy who goes to the drag strip and tries to be the quickest and then comes here and posts his time slip? We all do it for the challenge, to be the first, and yes to gain the recognition of our peers.

Do you go to concerts Blueford and not clap for the musicians because you don't want to inflate their egos? Do you sit there and grumble how dare they go out in public and show off their talents? We applaud them for their talents and because they share them with us. Yes they get their egos stroked, but I get to hear their glorious music. I think it's a fair trade. I get some atta-boys and you all get a programmable ECU.

You would think me a better man for doing this and keeping it all a secret to myself? Or perhaps its my anti-capitalist attitude you resent...my giving away valuable knowledge for mere recognition instead of money. How twisted of me.

The truth is that desiring recognition for ones accomplishments is human nature, we all do it. Go look in the mirror Blueford. You are always showing off your talents and trying to get attention around here. It's too bad your only talent is being an asshole.

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zxlnt


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Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2851
posted June 06, 2006 11:38 AM        
Ha ha that last line is the greatest.. Thanks for the laugh. Keep up the research ridge, its appreciated..

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Jason9R


Novice Class
Posts: 47
posted June 06, 2006 12:26 PM        
Checkmate
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deathpulse


Pro
Posts: 1688
posted June 06, 2006 12:27 PM        
Ok blueford - one more example of reverse engineering - the original BIOS reverse engineering from the original IBM PC. Didn't Compaq reverse engineer the original IBM PC BIOS and thus open up the world to cheaper IBM clones? MUAHAHAHAA - I bet I could come up with more examples of reverse software engineering if I tried . Fact is you CAN reverse engineer stuff, it just takes some doing.
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blueford


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Posts: 2984
posted June 07, 2006 12:19 AM        
quote:
Ok blueford - one more example of reverse engineering - the original BIOS reverse engineering from the original IBM PC. Didn't Compaq reverse engineer the original IBM PC BIOS and thus open up the world to cheaper IBM clones? MUAHAHAHAA - I bet I could come up with more examples of reverse software engineering if I tried . Fact is you CAN reverse engineer stuff, it just takes some doing.


Yes, Compaq because of a court decision was allowed to, legally in a "clean room", free from patent infringement, But some say they cheated because they had former employees of IBM, who probably had the source code, a huge amount of money was at stake.

For those who don't know a computer program's source code is the collection of files that can be converted from human-readable form to an equivalent computer-executable form and without it you just have101101000111.


I should have said it's not feasible in this situation because of the amount of time required, lack of equipment, lack of source code and complete impossibility of connecting his laptop to the ECU and modifying it which would make it reengineering and read/write it's not.


Forget the software for a moment and read these posts! They're revealing.


Bikeland member Wideout is a computer expert and he offers his assistance.



Wideout says on May 23:

quote:
I manage a group of programmers proficient in various languages. Also, I have experience uploading, downloading and modifying code via various systems. If you need help, say the word.


And later Wideout says:
quote:
PM'ed you my background and how I might be able to help.



Editor's note: Wideout is so modest he doesn't just post his computer qualifications but PMs them to Ridgy, maybe Wideout senses something like don't upstage the genius.


So Ridgy says this on his May 25, post:

quote:
Just to clarify my above post the person I'm talking about knows who they are. I told them by email not to contact me anymore and blocked their address.

It just occurred(sic) to me later that perhaps I was a little harse(sic) with them.

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance. Words I try to live by.


"Never attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance" fucking unbelievable arrogance, see what's going on is Ridgy doesn't want anyone standing in his light, Wideout is a gentle harmless soft and fuzzy dude, what could he have said to Ridgy, for Ridgy to tell him not to contact him anymore and blocked his address?

Fuck me, nothing like overreacting, now, ask yourself why would he act like that? Unless you're an egomaniac you might not have a clue.

Look, we're not learning anything about software or ECUs in this thread, just human nature, this is charade, a preconceived pretense by Ridgy to lay his ego out on a pillow for some caressing.





BTW Wideout I see you've disappeared, if you're reading this please PM I'm an expert at dealing with bruised feelings, actually a genius, I could build a human mind from scratch starting with some Jell-O


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psycho1122


Pro
Posts: 1599
posted June 07, 2006 12:36 AM        
Blueford;

Thanks for splattering shit all over this thread. As someone else said, you should take this over to the Smackhouse.

OR, at least bring some constructive discussion to it.

Thank You
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deathpulse


Pro
Posts: 1688
posted June 07, 2006 01:08 AM        
Blu - are you a computer scientist? Just FYI - I am, not that it really matters or even lends too much credability - my schooling is over 14 years old at this point BUT... before you make HUGE BLANKET statements like

"you CAN NOT reverse engineer computer code"

you should really be more informed. The above statement is simply not correct. You then go back and admit your mistake in this post snippet:

quote:
quote:

I should have said it's not feasible in this situation because of the amount of time required, lack of equipment, lack of source code and complete impossibility of connecting his laptop to the ECU and modifying it which would make it reengineering and read/write it's not.



Again, the mark of ignorance. How do you know what Ridge has access to? How do you have a basis for an estimate of time?

Again you use a blanket statement "IMPOSSIBILITY" of connecting his laptop to the ECU. If I could have a nickle for every time some know-it-all said a new discovery or piece of technology or work of art was impossible throughout history only to be proven wrong, I'd be a VERY VERY VERY rich man.

I respectfully request that you refrain from using inflamatory and ignorant statements as above. It just makes you seem less informed - even if you are trying to make a valid point.


quote:
quote:

For those who don't know a computer program's source code is the collection of files that can be converted from human-readable form to an equivalent computer-executable form and without it you just have101101000111.



As for the above - I won't break this down too far, but all instructions on a computer are ultimately switch settings - on or off. The switch settings control the flow of electricity through a pathways that form predictable results based on math that has been aroudn for quite some time. As humans, we have learned to represent the flow of electricty through these switches with a zero (0) for off and a one (1) for on. As we have progressed through ever more complex computer technology, we have learned to represent the flow of electricty through the computer with even more abstracted methods - some include programming languages/. There are a host of different "level" languages that abstract the concept of the flow of this electricty even farther in an attempt to make it more "human understandable". At the end of the day, all this abstraction is doing is attempting to make it somewhat easier to understand the flow of electricity through the switches.

You know what? I have no clue if Ridge can acomplish his goal - I suspect you really don't either. So why don't you sit back, contribute if you can absorb if you can't and just watch? It doesn't sound like you have much to really offer.

Pulse out.

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supra5677


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Posts: 1274
posted June 07, 2006 01:08 AM        
IMHO all personal issues should be handled in the smackhouse.. This board is for repair issues, performance upgrades, up and coming technology and ideas...

supra

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blueford


Needs a job
Posts: 2984
posted June 07, 2006 01:37 AM        
To Supra et al, my responses do not belong in the Smackhouse because my comments about his ego involvement is my explanation for the question; Why would he pretend to be able to do something he knows he can't, relevant, goes to motive and feasibility.


Death come on, call a spade a spade, are you afraid to rock the boat?

Ridgy says:

quote:
These are just the first baby steps. There is a long road ahead. All I am doing now is verifying that it is physically possible to reprogram the ecu.

We still need to:

Figure out how to read the memory of the CPU
Build an interface
Read out the code.
Disassemble the code, figure out where the map is and how it works.

Obtain a working ecu
build a bike emulator, an electronic psuedo bike to plug the ecu into to make it think its on a bike so we can experiment with the code
write User friendly PC software to interface with the ECU
Find a volunteer willing to street or dyno test modified code on a real zx-12r



Death be honest, how hard would that be to read out the code and decipher it without help from Kawasaki? You tell us, please.



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tuusinii


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Posts: 1016
posted June 07, 2006 01:54 AM        
Reading the code from the 0 and 1 would be next to impossible, but now when Ridge has figured out the processor, he probably has - as I have understanded - all the information from Motorola where You can see not only 0 and 1 but also assebly code. So - with the hardwired board it isn't that impossible - Time consuming Yes - but impossible certainly not. Let's just hope Ridge pulls it out for all of us and not make him unhappy and not giving out the information...
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Wideout


Expert Class
Posts: 300
posted June 07, 2006 02:08 AM        
quote:



BTW Wideout I see you've disappeared, if you're reading this please PM I'm an expert at dealing with bruised feelings, actually a genius, I could build a human mind from scratch starting with some Jell-O




I'm still here. I know for a fact that he wasn't speaking of me, as I've never "emailed" him. I pm'd him once. I've stopped responding, because Ridge's skills are way above mine. I might be able to offer assistance, but will wait until if / when he calls on me. I will validate that your assumptions about what he (or anyone else with his knowledge) is capable of doing with an ECU...are wrong.

You do not want to drag me into this crap though sir. I know too much about your past and what you did to others on the org. I also know what the outcome was once people started threatening to pay you a visit in person over there. Not that it would tarnish your reputation here, you've done a great job of that yourself.

I just make it a point to avoid bringing up org stuff over at bikeland. I will not allow you to force me either. I realize your typical response will now be to smatter me into this umpteenth shitpot that you've stirred yet again. Feel free to. It really doesn't matter to me at this point.

But have a great day anyway.


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VincentHill


Needs a life
Posts: 6510
posted June 07, 2006 02:36 AM        
RR I have an 00 ECU that only has a problem operating the the Fuel Pump automatically. In other words, if I jump the relay, everything works perfectly. Not even a Scratch on the unit!

Do you need one of these??

BTW, on ZRXOA I posted a thread about alignment on the ZRX because the wheels are all out of alignment mostly because they are spaced wrong from the Factory and the Marks are off. You cannot believe how mad a few people got when I suggested that the bike handled better when the wheels were aligned and the marks did not match. It was like the end of the world would come if you did not use the factory Marks. I took the time to disprove everything with pictures and tests and now you cannot find a word from either of them.

COntinue to do your own thing and win lose or draw, you took a shot that no one else has ever posted about!. Like they say, the ones that can DO and the Ones that cannot, either Teach or Criticize!!
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blueford


Needs a job
Posts: 2984
posted June 07, 2006 02:43 AM        
OK will the unknown computer expert that emailed Ridgy come forward, your information is needed



And Wideout, your characterization of me being a punked at org. is bullshit

Here you can call bullshit on someone and not get deleted.


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fish_antlers


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The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21752
posted June 07, 2006 05:50 AM        
blueford... please dont fish in this thread... start a whole new one. I , for one, am extremely interested in how this plays out. Let RR do what he does and please leave this topic free of BS.

All of ya's can argue the Smack side of this in the Smack House...

-cheers.
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VincentHill


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posted June 07, 2006 06:01 AM        
Thanks Fish! This subject is so far beyond what I know about, it is like going to another Planet, and I am along to enjoy the ride. Why people pick on anyone trying to make things better for all of us is beyone me. It is clear that RR Did a lot of work, just to get to the board and not damage anything. I cannot believe how much cover is over the unit !
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navpreet318


Expert Class
one crazy 12
Posts: 192
posted June 07, 2006 12:53 PM        
well RR tell me is this 4Mhz crystal kinda slow.....


my friend in india who's a CDI wiz.....was laughing off his seat when he read this....he's using 20Mhz crystals on the Pro CDI's that he makes for the RD 350 and the RZ 350....2-strokers....


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2005 ZX-12R,Arata Full Ti, PC3,Gillis
Rearsets,Muzzy Velocity Stacks,BMC
Race filters.One Crazy 12

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ridgeracer


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Posts: 1309
posted June 08, 2006 12:09 AM        Edited By: ridgeracer on 8 Jun 2006 08:38
The 4MHz crystal for the CPU is actually a refrence source. Like many CPUs the MC68hc16R1 has an internal PLL Frequency Multiplier for the internal clock. Its the same kind of thing you find on a PC. Your 3.2 GHz Pentium is not running off a 3.2 G crystal somewhere on the mother board, its running off a much slower clock that the Pentium multiplies internally. You could run the ECU CPU off a 32.768 Khz watch crystal if you wanted to, it can multiply the refrence frequency by as much as 256 times.

The data sheet for the ECU CPU specs the max internal system clock at 16.7 MHz. As the ECU is using a 4 MHz refrence I would guess it's set to run at 16 MHz.

As for your original question about a 4 MHz CPU being slow; Take an engine running at 12,000 rpm, thats 200 revs per second, thats .005 S or 5mS between revs. Any cpu is actually slower than its clock because it takes several clock cycles to do one Fetch/Execute cycle. So a 4 MHz CPU probably executes something like 1 million instructions per second.

Even at that slow speed the CPU can still execute 5,000 instructions per one crank revolution. Thats plenty of code to grab some sensor inputs and calculate a pointer into a map. I would bet it spends a lot of that time just waiting for the cam angle sensor to move to just the right position.

Like wise your friends 20 MHz CDI software, even on the much higher reving 350, probably spends more clock cycles twidling its thumbs waiting for something to happen than actually processing data. The truth is engines are slugs in the nano second world of silicon.

edit: At 16 MHz the ECU CPU would have 20,000 instructions per rev at redline. In addition the CPU has a DSP co-processor to do any heavy math.

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navpreet318


Expert Class
one crazy 12
Posts: 192
posted June 08, 2006 02:29 AM        
ok...

thanks for the clarification....


by the way did you see any similarities in the 02-03 ECU and the 04-05 ECU diagram that i posted in the previous page.....like is there anything that you can do to its MAP....it'd be a real help for me.....


____________
2005 ZX-12R,Arata Full Ti, PC3,Gillis
Rearsets,Muzzy Velocity Stacks,BMC
Race filters.One Crazy 12

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ridgeracer


Pro
Posts: 1309
posted June 08, 2006 08:07 AM        
Yes I did find something. It's obvious the newer ECUs are a different design than the previous ones. They changed the physical connector and its pin assignments. But both new and old model have 'unused' pins on the connectors, 8 on the old, 7 on the new.

I believe these 'unused' pins are used to program the ECU. Up post I described how I traced one of them to the CPU Flash Memory power pin and how all the unused pins are actually connected to traces on the board. They are not just there because they couldn't find any connectors with the right number of pins.

This is good news for you. It suggests, but does not prove, that whatever scheme is used to program the older ECUs will work for the newer ones too. This is also common sense; why redesign a product so that you would have to replace all your exsisting programmers at the factory.


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blueford


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Posts: 2984
posted June 08, 2006 08:07 AM        
Revealing character aspects about Ridge in the Smackhouse.


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blitzkrieg


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Road kill = Free lunch.
Posts: 2044
posted June 08, 2006 09:00 AM        
quote:
Revealing character aspects about Ridge in the Smackhouse.




Good. Then keep your comments over there.

This is NOT a political thread, it's a motorcycle thread.
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VincentHill


Needs a life
Posts: 6510
posted June 08, 2006 10:17 AM        
quote:
quote:
Revealing character aspects about Ridge in the Smackhouse.




Good. Then keep your comments over there.

This is NOT a political thread, it's a motorcycle thread.


and you do not need to advertise over here about over there
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!

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blueford


Needs a job
Posts: 2984
posted June 08, 2006 12:50 PM        

I was racially profiled I had to slug his white cop ass!

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