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BIKELAND > FORUMS > ZX12R ZONE.com > Thread: Hacking the Planet one ZX-12 ECU at a time. NEW TOPIC NEW POLL POST REPLY
your car is slow


Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
posted May 24, 2006 12:35 AM        
if someone (doug) can verify that I no longer need the ECU to run the bike with the Muzzy EMS then ill donate mine.

To my knowledge with the piggyback setup...I still need the ECU though....although ive heard different opinions on this recently

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fish_antlers


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posted May 24, 2006 01:49 AM        
this is pretty much the coolest topic ever! seriously! You guys never cease to amaze me
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?


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deathpulse


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posted May 24, 2006 02:46 AM        
Sticky it Fish!
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five 0


Expert Class
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posted May 24, 2006 08:03 AM        
Ridge, the other ECU works, but doesnt fire on #3 I think!!!

5-0

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tuusinii


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Posts: 1016
posted May 24, 2006 08:35 AM        
Yes this is one of the biggest new things happening on ZX12 since many Years. I'm currentrly working with electronics and DSP:s and know that there is a long way ahead but I surely hope that this will work and would also like to do something to make it happen faster. And as a side note I really don't understand why would someone produce an ECU that would not be reconfigurable - that would just be stupid in todays world. Only thing that questions that it really is doable is that back in the 2000 when the High Altitude ECU came awaivable they changed the whole ECU but the reason may be because no dealer has any equipment to recaliberate the ECU it's cheaper to change the ECU than offer the equipment to the dealers. But in todays world where PC:s are awery where it dosen't make sence to not to have a program and simple USB to ECU serial transformer and an appropriate program to run the software. But for whatever reason the Japan(Triuph and Aprilia offer that) bike manufacturers don't offer that opportunity so we must hope that RR does it for us.
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Wideout


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Posts: 300
posted May 24, 2006 09:55 AM        
quote:
Wideout, thanks for the info I'll keep you in mind.

Do you have any experience with the Motorola BDM background debugging mode?


PM'ed you my background and how I might be able to help.

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fish_antlers


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posted May 24, 2006 03:52 PM        
tuusinii raises some very interesting points... it's exciting to consider the functionality of programming the ECU, and as tuusinii points out, why hasn't this been done before? The reasons could be numerous, however perhaps the level of training and the technical infrastructure required to initiate soft digital upgrades and repairs may (have been in the past, and possibly even now) cost prohibitive. Consider how difficult it is to find a reliable shop with a reliable mechanic to work on your bike, let alone trust them to deal with the finer points of the inner digital workings of your ECU?

This takes me back to the time when we first created this site. Fuel injected bikes were relatively new, as were forums such as this. Computers were considerably slower and less capable than today. My own desktop unit sits , mostly unused, while I carry around my laptop surfing my high speed wireless connection. This is something I would have not imagined 5 to 6 years ago (yes folks.. it's almost been 6 years)...

Now I can't imagine a day without this site and interacting with all of you, and I can't imagine WHY we can't jack into our ECUs and execute soft changes to them.

All of this is very cool, but also sobering in a way... to see where we are now and just how far we have evolved as a community.

It's really all of you, the readers (and I know I've said this before) that are driving this industry forward, whether the industry likes it or not. This site truly has been, and continues to be what many would call a "disruptive technology". From cracking the speed limiter to steering readers away from print media... it's all of you that are now keeping some poor guy in Japan up all night worrying if somehow, someway, you might get inside his ECU.

I love it.



____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?


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pdb1964


Zone Head
Posts: 536
posted May 24, 2006 05:52 PM        
When you think about it, it seems bike technology with respect to ECUs is behind the automobile. I mean I can get a hand held unit that will re-flash my truck's ECU to change certain parameters to increase performance, and it's a 99. Dealers can update the ECU codes if required to fix initail design problems.

My guess is that it is a numbers issue. GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc sell enough vehicles with ECUs that will make it cost effective for the dealer/repair shops to purchase diagnostic/reprogramming units where in the motorcycle world, maybe this isn't the case.


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fish_antlers


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posted May 25, 2006 12:14 AM        Edited By: fish_antlers on 25 May 2006 07:16
possibly, however I think that in the auto world the shops at the dealer level are far better equipped to deal with new vehicles that are obviously "top heavy" with technology. Good example is that the "check engine" light came on in my Durango. Code readout showed it thought the CD player malfunctioned.

Not sure if the auto programmers (ie: superchips etc) actually effect change to the areas of an automotive ECU that we want to change ? Perhaps someone here can clarify. Either way gaining full access to motorcycle ECU will certainly put the nail in the coffin for the Power Commander and all of the look alike devices.

Maybe they'll simply take this body of work and repackage it and sell it Bonneville Box style. (I'm sure RidgeRacer remembers that. I certainly remember the topic... wonder if it's still in the archive?
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?


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pdb1964


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Posts: 536
posted May 25, 2006 01:31 AM        Edited By: pdb1964 on 25 May 2006 08:34
Some are ad-ons like the Power Commander. They change the parameters such as injector duration, max boost, etc. It will also send the appropriate signals to the original ECU in order to prevent the "check engine" light from coming on. The unit that I want for my truck even has an electronic display that can display imformation such as boost, exhaust temp, trans temp, rpm, and much more.

The programmer type plugs into the diagnostic port, remove the OEM code, store it, and replaces it with one of a number of different new codes that you can choose from depending if your are going to tow or want to race up and down city streets.

I guess the difference from what RR wants to do is that he will be able to create his own code and via a laptop, change the code at will. The above, I think you get pre-packaged codes.

I'm sure some of the diesel owners on this site can expand on this.


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ridgeracer


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posted May 25, 2006 01:34 AM        
It is really amazing the number of members we have with electronics or software experience. Many of you have PM'd or emailed me with offers of help and advice. I appreciate all of your efforts. It definetly takes a village to hack an ecu.

And again while I appreciate any suggestions or thoughts you may have it occurred to me that perhaps, to save time, I should tell you something of my background so that you have an idea of what kind of topics I may already be knowlgeable in.

For the last 20+ years I have be designing distributed processing industrial controls networked using RS-485 with RS-232 user interfaces. By design I mean write the initial spec, select components, draw the schematic, do the bill of materials, layout the Printed Circuit Board, and then write all the embedded software including all the interface drivers. I wrote my first assembly language program for a MC6800 when I was 17. We use codewarrior now, but the last machine language project I did which I still maintain is over 25,000 lines of code.

The design I'm currently working on is based around a 177MHz ARM9 core NS9360 and will have 8M of SDRAM, 8M of Flash, 10/100 Ethernet, USB Host, USB device, OptoIsolated RS-485, RS-232, LCD Interface, and JTAG for debugging. I'm responsible for all the software on this project including a realtime OS, and all the interface drivers and a TCP/IP suite for the LAN including a webserver with SSL. I've finished the board design and the 6 layer prototype boards are off being stuffed with the 40 ICs and 438 discrete components I selected for the design.

I work out of my home and have been telecommuting since 1990. To have a reason to get out of the house and socialize I also taught for 6 years part time at a local vocational school. I teach Computer Repair tech and Networking tech certification classes. I've also taught everything from High School Begining electronics to college level basic AC/DC theory class. ELI ICE anyone? anyone? Bueller......Bueller?

In other words I could design, build, and program my own ECU from scratch.

I don't wan't to discourage anyone from contributing, but to the gentlemen who feels it necessary to email me several times a day with advice that is the electronic equivalent of 'Left Loose, Right Tight, give it a rest.

I can't decide if your really trying to help in which case I apologize, or your just a smart ass.

Hey, perhaps Doug Meyer needs some advice on chain lube?

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supra5677


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posted May 25, 2006 02:30 AM        
I saw your post on ihacked.com on how to by pass the 2001+ speed restriction pretty impressive..
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ridgeracer


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posted May 25, 2006 03:23 AM        
Just to clarify my above post the person I'm talking about knows who they are. I told them by email not to contact me anymore and blocked their address.

It just occured to me later that perhaps I was a little harse with them.

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance. Words I try to live by.

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fish_antlers


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posted May 25, 2006 04:30 AM        
supra... RR first published that hack here many a year ago.,. it was a first for this site, and alos the world methinks.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?


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droid


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Posts: 133
posted May 25, 2006 04:38 AM        
RR

"In other words I could design, build, and program my own ECU from scratch"

So have you considered it because it would probably be far superior to the electronics in the mass produced Kawasaki unit

And I'm not knocking you or the thread it was just an observation and might save you a lot of time?? And make you some money! The bottom line is if you succeed you'll sell an interface and software to a few who might copy them, etc, etc, I WOULD buy one and would NOT copy it.
If you design your own replacement ECM not a plug in PC type unit then no-one is gonna try and copy it !
Also the OEM unit will eventually fail and need replacing anyway so an aftermarket fully programmable ecu would be an attractive prospect.

Keep up the good work

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Y2KZX12R


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CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
posted May 25, 2006 07:44 AM        
quote:

Not sure if the auto programmers (ie: superchips etc) actually effect change to the areas of an automotive ECU that we want to change ? Perhaps someone here can clarify. Either way gaining full access to motorcycle ECU will certainly put the nail in the coffin for the Power Commander and all of the look alike devices.


Fish, for a GM vehicle those hand held units are allready a thing of the past. Buying one at this point in time is not the way to go. There very limited in what they can change and the way they change it is primitive like a powercommander.

hptuners.com

Now this software is the cats ass in tuning. Even thier web site only shows a small amount of what it can do. You can change several hundred perameters.
Its windows based and basically you hook up to the diagnostic port and download the entire program from the computer. You work with the file in the windows editing program. Once you made the changes you want you upload the file back into the cars ECU.
you can change any aspect of the trannys operation or the engine.
Its overwhelming at first to see the pages and pages of things you can change.

But an interface like HPtuners would be awsome. I wouldnt expect theres anywhere near the amount of tuneability in these ecus, mostly due to the lack of a closed loop system. but still..
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Y2KZX12R
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ridgeracer


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posted May 25, 2006 10:04 AM        
quote:
So have you considered it because it would probably be far superior to the electronics in the mass produced Kawasaki unit


Let's see take a year off work, scrimp and save have the wife work extra hours; I can probably get by on $50,000
Misc Software $3,000
10 fast turn prototypes $5,000
couple of used FI bikes to use as test beds $8,000
Initial production run of 100 units $30,000
Setting up a website, advertising, going to bike shows $5,000
Payola to fish for favorable review on bikeland, $20

Let's say $100,000 loan

I would guess my cost $300 a unit. Kawi's go for $1200, sell mine for $800 to break into the market as a total unknown; $500 profit.

I need to sell a minimum of 10 everymonth to pay my rent, and cover customer service and upgrades for new models. But in ten months my initial run will be gone so I need to come up with another 200 units for $60,000 Plus now I will need to sell at least 320 units just to pay off my loan plus the 120 a year to stay in business.

And thats if I do everything myself, engineering, purchasing, shipping, bookkeeping. Start hiring help and things get even worse. Then the divorce in the second year because I've been to busy to pay attention to my wife and kids really messes things up.

Shit after 5 or 10 years I might actually start making more money than I do now working 5-6 hours a day when I feel like it.

No thank you, I've been involved with 3 such ventures 2 went bust, 1 is still going (the one I work for now) all 3 lost their wives and the one that worked he ended up having to sell the company to pay off his wife. He was a success, but not a happy man. Last I heard he was thinking about becoming a priest.

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GUNNER


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posted May 25, 2006 10:10 AM        
I can understand that..........
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ridgeracer


Pro
Posts: 1309
posted May 25, 2006 10:33 AM        
With total control of the ECU the imagination is the limit.

Thinks I day dream about;

FI light used as a shift light

Anti-Theft; You have to flip your kill switch off and on 3 times in less than 5 seconds or hold your throttle more than 25% open when you turn on the key then release it before the bike would start.

At any speed over 10 mph starter button becomes NOS switch or air shifter switch, ECU would change parameters for nos, cutout ignition for air shifter.

Adjustable Redline; Hold the throttle wide open, turn on the key, wait 10 seconds, tach needle goes full clockwise, slowly release the throttle as you do the tack needle goes down. When the tack points to 12500 hit the kill switch, 12500 is your new redline the engine won't exceed. (set when the bike is in neutral redline applies to all gears, set it in first and it applies to first only, 2nd 2nd only, etc)

Thats my idea of custom

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deathpulse


Pro
Posts: 1688
posted May 25, 2006 01:05 PM        
Hell I just want a nice re-map of the air fuel and timing with inputs for each gear. Oh yeah and a rev increase... and maybe compensation for a new cam.... yea yea...

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dubious


Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
posted May 25, 2006 03:42 PM        
Deep , very deep.
I certainly hope someone will do something with all your work and efforts..
whether you do it for fun or not.

Very very impressive ridgeracer!
Very impressive... and anyone who knows me knows the glass is half empty!
Kudo's

14, 10, 6, are new kids on the block .
Hopefully the fundamentals of design, board layout and programming are similar for the 12 and the new bikes..
Like fish said... we need this for the 14!
14 needs derestrictor for bottom end power resriction, and top end derestrictor.
Kawi neutered the bottom end torque in lower gears too



____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.

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ridgeracer


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Posts: 1309
posted May 26, 2006 08:21 AM        
SHORT UPDATE:

Things still look good, making progress


LONG UPDATE:

Repaired the power supply and reattached or replaced parts damaged removing the epoxy. Powered up the board while monitoring current. No magic smoke escaped; idles at 190mA

5v power good, crystal oscillating, The board has a combo power monitor / watchdog circuit (toshiba TA8000s) which releases reset about 100mS after power up. reset good, (something must be kicking the dog). Not a lot of other activity which is to be expected from a single chip MCU. Because all the data / address buses are internal there is nothing to spy on. Is it Brain dead or just playing possum?

I checked the SCLK line on the I2C eeprom (ATMEL 93c66) and just after reset it is being clocked then goes idle which means there is at least some code execution. I suspect after reset the cpu detects that it is not plugged into anything and goes into somekind of standby fault mode. I attached the FI LED but didn't get anything out of it.

So things look good so far. Its not just a hunk of silicon glass encased in plastic but won't know if I can pull the code out till I try.

Next step build a Board Debug Mode (BDM) interface to connect to the internal ECU connector CN3. And then write interface software to start bit banging out the code. The BDM is supposed to be an SPI like interface. I have some old MC68hc809 prototypes with a ready built spi port, serial port and 4x20 LCD display. I have a whole bunch of SPI code for these. I'm thinking it will be alot easier to modify that to grab the BDM data, buffer it, and pass it up the 232 than to building a PC -> BDM interface from scratch.

http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/ref_manual/CPU16RM.pdf Chapter 10 for BDM details

But seeing as its Memorial Day weekend I don't know how much of that I'll get done







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ridgeracer


Pro
Posts: 1309
posted May 27, 2006 02:52 AM        
BTW it is my intention to post technical info on this project here as it is uncovered to kind of keep a running journal in case some one else wants to duplicate my efforts sometime in the future....or I get hit by a bus.

Pin out of the internal Debugging port labled CN3

The plug has 8 pins spaced 0.1" and is labled pin 1 on the end closest to the CPU (IC501) All the signal lines connect to the CPU so I have used the CPU signal names and (pin#)
_ denotes active low

1) Vdd 5VDC
2) IPIPE0 / DSO (67)
3) IPIPE1 / DSI (68) * 10k pullup resistor R514
4) BKPT_ / DSCLK (69) * 10k pullup resistor R515
5) RESET_ (71)
6) BERR_ (73) * 10k pullup resistor R512
7) FREEZE / QUOT (74)
8) Vss Ground



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navpreet318


Expert Class
one crazy 12
Posts: 192
posted May 28, 2006 03:28 PM        
here you go my friend....hope this helps...

and can you also look in to some similarities in the b3 ECU....

i don't have the option right now otherwise i would have donated you my ECU.....


lets see if i find an ECU here i'll definitely help you out.....


if you need anything else from the b1/b2/b3 manual let me know...will be happy to help you out....




























ps.sorry for the extra large pics......mods scale them if you want
____________
2005 ZX-12R,Arata Full Ti, PC3,Gillis
Rearsets,Muzzy Velocity Stacks,BMC
Race filters.One Crazy 12

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fish_antlers


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Posts: 21760
posted May 29, 2006 03:11 PM        
navpreet... where's the photo of the shirt, bro?
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