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BIKELAND > FORUMS > ZX12R ZONE.com > Thread: Hacking the Planet one ZX-12 ECU at a time. NEW TOPIC NEW POLL POST REPLY
2000redrocket


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Posts: 1659
posted November 11, 2013 04:10 AM        
But also remember that the tps will not effect the lite load density map at all. Where ever you put it it seems.
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supra5677


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Posts: 1277
posted November 29, 2013 11:49 AM        
Ping red rocket. Can you send me your speed density map settings?

Supra

crowell.brian809@gmail.com

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goberserk


Parking Attendant
Posts: 3
posted December 03, 2013 05:16 AM        
I found the ECU mating connectors. They are AMP brand which is now TE Connectivity.
Part Numbers:
34 Pin Connector: 4-1437290-0
26 Pin Connector: 3-1437290-7
Female Pins, three different PNs for different AWG wires:
1437284-9
3-1447221-4
3-1447221-3

Here's a link to the 34 pin on TE's site:
http://www.te.com/catalog/pn/en/4-1437290-0?RQPN=4-1437290-0

They make a few different variants of that connector family with regards to the keying and the number of clips. So make sure you get exactly that part number. The "check stock" feature on TE's site is nice. I prefer Mouser and Digikey but I ended up getting mine from OnlineComponents.com because they had both connectors and pins in stock. You can also order the little rubber grommets/seals but I didn't so you'll have to figure out the part numbers for those if you want them.






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goberserk


Parking Attendant
Posts: 3
posted December 10, 2013 06:03 AM        
I just wanted to say thanks to RidgeRacer and everyone else who assisted in reverse-engineering the '12 ECU. Over the weekend I successfully changed my rev limit! Looking forward to the ability to tune the fuel maps while maintaining all the OEM functionality of the stock ECU.
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RidgeRacer


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Posts: 1309
posted December 10, 2013 06:46 PM        
quote:
Ok. I understand. Is it possible to change MAP(IAP)-values with resistor(which is connected in series)? My bike running rich all the way between 0-10% TPS-value. I think I'll try it, if there are at least bit of common sense. With AFR-indicator it's not problem to see how bike running in any rpm/tp -areas. If MAP-sensor are working below 12% throttle positions(low rpm's), there are no way damage engine if AFR is bit lean somewhere.

Bike running so rich at idle and between 2-10% throttle(where MAP-map take part to fuel adjustment) that it sounds like 2-stroke, has massive fuel consumption there and contaminates exhaust-part of engine.



I realize this is a month old topic but for those who come along later....

The quickest way to lean the bike out across the board, regardless of TPS/MAP fuel mode is by messing with the SAP sensor in the tail. This is the static or barometric pressure sensor (i.e. Altitude). decreasing the voltage on this line make the bike think it is at a higher altitude where there is less air and the ECU accordingly reduces fuel. If you want to try a resistor try it on the SAP, not the IAP.

Actually a resistor is not going to work very well, not like on an ECT sensor which is just a resistive element to ground. The SAP and IAP are active (powered) sensors with driver elements. Plus the ECU inputs for these sensors are not current dependent and not set up as a voltage divider like the ECT and IAT sensor inputs.

There used to be a device you could buy for this, the Motty AFR


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tuusinii


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Posts: 1016
posted December 10, 2013 07:12 PM        
Thanks for the numbers on the connectors. Bought mine from Mouser because it was much cheaper to Europe but You had to buy 100 pins. Also found out the part number for the plug is someone is interested: 571-4-1437284-3 (Mouser), 4-1437284-3(OEM). I bought the connector to use it to power the ECU while flashing so I don't need to put individual pins every time. Ones I allready put them to wrong pins but luckily didn't harm the ECU. This way don't have to worry about the misplacing the pins.

Here's pic of the plugs:


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tuusinii


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Posts: 1016
posted December 10, 2013 07:20 PM        
By the way. Got my hands on IDApro but haven't had any time to look in to how to disable the fuel-cut off. But hopefully some day. During the summer got the normal maps pretty close and also got the on-off transition better by tweaking the maps. Had fattened the TPS maps too much because it in fact was in the IAP-mode but it helped the on-off transition when I leaned the TPS map even if it normally uses IAP-map...
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supra5677


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Posts: 1277
posted December 15, 2013 06:23 AM        
To board:

Could this ecu be made to work on a zx12r with the right connectors?

supra..


http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/microsquirt-engine-management-system-30-wiring-harness-p-131.html?osCsid=a478d96728d4ab68ba6da1d9df7978ee

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tuusinii


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Posts: 1016
posted December 15, 2013 02:03 PM        
After briefly looking it the ECU the answer is yes. But you need to change the ignition on the ZX12 because that ECU can't support the ignition system ZX12 has. Basically you need some aftermarket ignition coils and drivers. And then you need to put MAP-sensor in. Other components in the ZX12 should work (Crank and CAM sensors, TPS, coolant temp, IAT (you may have to change the temp sensors, didn't look the Service manual yet))

You have to do a lot of wiring changes of course (all the sensors and change injector wirings to have two batches (now all 4 are independent))

And also it would help a lot to have wide-band-O2 sensor (Innovate LC1 for example) wired to the ECU.

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supra5677


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Posts: 1277
posted December 16, 2013 10:44 AM        
How come the existing Map Sensor at the throttle body can't be used? It also works on 5 volt correct?
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psychegr


Parking Attendant
Posts: 23
posted December 16, 2013 11:03 AM        
Hi there!

As i see you are still doing ok with your 16 bit ecus.
I know that these ecus have a serial bootloader. But not all of them have hardware support for that.
If anyone is interested in this i need some help to figure out which version of the ecus have hardware support for the bootloader.
The procedure is easy. You just need to ground pin #30 in the big connector using a 1k resistor for safety.
Turn the ignition on. If the fuel pump runs, then there is no support for the bootloader. If it doesnt run then there is a 99% possibility that there is hardware support for the bootloader.
If you want more info send me a pm!

Regards

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supra5677


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posted December 16, 2013 12:55 PM        
To Psychegr:

What is a boot loader and what are you talking about?

supra

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RidgeRacer


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Posts: 1309
posted December 16, 2013 01:13 PM        
I've checked both the -1079 and -1089 and found the serial channel hardware is not populated.




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tuusinii


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Posts: 1016
posted December 16, 2013 03:09 PM        
quote:
How come the existing Map Sensor at the throttle body can't be used? It also works on 5 volt correct?


Because ZX12 doesn't have MAP (Manifold Absolute pressure) but IAP (Intake Air Pressure). It needs theSAP sensor at the back of bike to calculate the MAP. That Megasquirts is designed to work with MAP.

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psychegr


Parking Attendant
Posts: 23
posted December 16, 2013 05:24 PM        
Supra, lets just say that it is a program in the ecu that lets you reflash it from the main connector or from the MAD connector if you rewire it!

ridgeracer, I know that the 1079 and 1089 dont support it but what happens with the rest?
Maybe there is a version out there which supports it! This is what i want to know!

Curiosity killed the cat! :P

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tuusinii


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posted December 16, 2013 09:44 PM        
I could try with my ECU. I'll report back...
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supra5677


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posted December 17, 2013 05:36 AM        
To Tuusinii:

Isn't the IAP Sensor and a MAP sensor essentially the same thing? A standard MAP sensor with an air fuel ratio would give you VE Correct?

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2000redrocket


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Posts: 1659
posted December 17, 2013 06:50 AM        
supra my density map (iap) will nor help you. if i remember your bike is a bit newer than mine.
for those messing around. setting driving around fueling is all iap (density on my older def ) even at 75mph.
for those that have that suumble wheh wacking the throttle open at lower revs add fuen to the tps map in the lower rpms ares say to 3000 rpm and to 50% throttle or so. that will fix it. the density map is eaiser to plot with a nice big vacume guage dampened a lot stuck to your gas tank. it will tell you exactly where to change it. you have to remember the vacuum colum though.
i bought a wego3. it to me is much better tham a lm1. to me those are a dissapointment. i hooked my wego 0-5vdc to the iap sensor and it will get close but the guage is better.
ride around, see a messed up spot and kill the bike with the thumb switch amd make it flatline. that marks the place. as far as knowing what you atre doing watching the plot on a logged ride when you pull throttle it dumps vacuum.

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tuusinii


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Posts: 1016
posted December 17, 2013 03:05 PM        
Supra: No MAP is the actual pressure difference between inlet and static, but IAP is just the pressure at the intake, regardless of the static pressure in the air. So basically value 50 at sealevel in IAP is much more air going in to the engine than 50 at 10000ft. But 50 MAP value is same regardless of the altitude. And that means that you can calculate the air mass from the MAP (and temp) but not from IAP.

And as redrocket said about the tuning: On stock pipe I made about 50 maps to get the engine mapping good... When I switched to Akra pipe I'm now on my 8:th map and I'm at about the same state of tune as I was with the OEM pipe. So I've learned better practices after experimenting. But the thing is that the TPS map can be made good in 2-3 measurements. I've made only maybe 3 runs at high TPS settings and my AFR is between 12.8 and 13.2 the whole range. But IAP map is much harder because when you change the IAP mapping and fix on column the enegine starts to run better and at the same time the IAP columns at that RPM changes to different and you have to fix that also. And one has to remember that most of the normal riding is on the IAP map and changes in region of 1% of TPS can have multiple IAP map columns you have to change.

And the hardest part is those TPS openings in the region 5-15% because you don't know when you're at the TPS map and when in IAP map... It would really help if the serial connection to the ECU would work so it would always tell us what cell it's using. But in my experience the mapping without datalogging isin't possible - or at least very hard. Because the movements are so small if you want to tweak the little hickups. I've also used some extrapolation so that I always give more fuel when TPS (or IAP) is more and vice versa. In the beginning there were many situation that giving more TPS actually gave less fuel (or at least it was very rich in low TPS and lean on high TPS). And also in the beginning I used the automatic map generation in the Innovate software but soon found out that you get much better results by looking the actual run data and look the AFR:s from there because there seems to bee little time delay in the AFR measurements (maybe 100-200ms) wich is significan't in some situation and not so significant on others.

In the end I've got my map pretty close this summer. But next summer I still plan to work on the "acceleration pump" maps and do some little tweaks here and there. But basically I'm also learned to notice those very small stumbless that are all over the place, the ones I never noticed before I started to tune the map. And I've also noticed that it's a good habbit to drive at least 10km (6miles) on highway before starting the logging because it takes about that much before the engine actually is at the working temp. Coolant is warm much earlier but the oil and other parts take much longer to get warm and they can really give you false readings when you're tuning those last digits of the AFR...

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supra5677


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posted December 18, 2013 03:20 AM        
Thanks Tuusinii:

From what I have tea and correct me if I'm wrong Speed Density give more accurate tuning than Alpha N. There is also more resolution as far as the maps with Speed Density. If I were using the Micro Squirt ECU I would be eliminating the SAP Sensor in the tail because it would no longer be necessary? Again I could be wrong. But buttom line the ECU is so antiquated because the Speed Density Map doesn't work at all past 10% throttle or so. Also the voltage from the IAP Sensor should correspond to how much ACTUAL air is coming in, then it compares that with the preset chart? My question would the bike run better overall on just the Speed Density Map? Also the scale of the Density Map looks wrong.

For example at 100% throttle it says 1.0 or 13 millibars. The most measured actually is 33 millibars at 11,000 plus rpm at high speed. IF this is correct the bike doesn't compensate nearly enough to run on Speed Density at all. I'm trying to understand the limitation of the ECU and what if anything could be done to make it better..

Supra

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2000redrocket


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Posts: 1659
posted December 18, 2013 08:14 AM        
supre the ecu works fine. i think you are over think it to try and get more power. it will not. it probably will make more power with a ecu tune than a power commander tune.

the ecu sences load. i am not sure what it switches over to an map but at steady to moderat throttle transitions i am tuneing the density map and making the correct changes.

i can see the density to be the better way to keep a bike fueling correctly under lite loads and higher vacuum. think of the vacuum thing a bit. when you crack the throttle open you dump vacuum. so saying that the more throttle you open up the less vacuum dumps to a place where you are giving it throttle and the ecu will not see much of a vacuum change. it sencing load is a good thing cause it switches to the fixed an map. remember i was driving with a 4" vacuum guage. stop trying to reinvent the wheel. when someone that gets how to tune the ecu under all conditions i can not see it worth any more money on a after market ecu setup. you will pull your hair out (or someone will) and take a while to get to where it was stock.
i flashed my ecy a whole lot to the point i asked ridge when i will brake it. i found out some things also.
tuneing with a guage makes it a lot faster to nail a place down vs a scaled 0-5vdc reading.
the bike idles around 18-22 colom.
when you make it run correctly or get closer to optimal it makes more vacuum for the same rpm. so you fix a place and move over to a new place.
the only time i mess with the an map is at the dyno or the dragstrip except for that off idle stumble.
and to keep from having to reflash i made it 14.3 above 9000rpm and use a dobeck tuner to add fuel on top rpms that way it is just a little screwdriver to go lean or rich.

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tuusinii


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Posts: 1016
posted December 18, 2013 03:34 PM        
Supra. As redrocket said: the reason to switchover is just that. At low TPS the vacuum chances much more than TPS so it gives much more resolution in the map. For example I've changed about 10 IAP cells in TPS position from 1-3%. It would require very good measurement of the TPS to get the same resolution - we would be talking from millivolts or less. And then you would need be very good at setting the TPS where you want it. And the same is true for TPS in near wide open throttles: vacuum change from TPS 60% -> 70% is very little so TPS measurement gives better resolution. So the reason is that by switching the map you get better overall control. The ECU in ZX12 works well - maybe the only problem is that it's not able to work in closed loop so if your map isin't good the engine won't run good. Also by time it can change a little.

You have to also remember that the TPS is also used for timing control and acceleration pump function.

If you set the maps good the bike runs good. No reason to change the ECU in most cases. Turbo is a different thing...

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psychegr


Parking Attendant
Posts: 23
posted December 18, 2013 10:00 PM        
I need to add and correct me if i am wrong!

Closed loop isnt always the best. Maybe it is good to run closed loop to reduce fuel consumption but for power it is not. I agree that running closed loop is the ECU's "autotune" function but it is slow and not recommended for high power engines. At least i dont recommend it.
I say 'slow' because the AFR sensor is slow. Besides that to tune for power i dont suggest tuning using AFR readings. There are plenty articles on that subject around the internet so you can do a research.
For me the stock ECU is just fine for a tuned engine. Tune it for power in a dyno and then datalog enough time/days in different conditions. Use the dyno map as a base map and correct the lower range depending on your datalogs.
tuusinii and 2000redrocket are correct.
And as a final word on this i wouldnt change a stock ECU for a microsquirt. Not that it wont work but i have seen bikes with stock ecus going over 500hp and still run excellent on city driving.

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tuusinii


Pro
Posts: 1016
posted December 18, 2013 10:35 PM        
The only problem with the ECU tuning I'm run in to is very small and it's also somehow fixed in the later ('00>) ECUs or especially in the 32 bit ECUs. Because when tuning the IAP map at low RPMs the values in the map are in the region of 10 to 15. So if I put there 13 it's a little bit of rich and if I put it to 12 it's a little bit lean. But that is only maybe fuel consumption question, because if AFR is between 12.5 to 15 the engine sitll runs good.

About the close loop: hard close loop - like using WBO2 sensor full time isin't good but using the feedback to average the AFR and then change the end value little would be nice. That would help especially if your air temp/SAP/coolant temp map is little of. Or when there are other things that change in the long run. Espcially on street. it would be nice when cruising to get the AFR good. - on race tract not so because you're always loooking that last 100th! On the other hand the opel loop ECU in my bike has worked good for over 10 years so the problem isn't big

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supra5677


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Posts: 1277
posted December 19, 2013 04:06 AM        
Brock Davidson seems to think that closed loop is superior for horsepower and tuning. Id'e like others to weigh in after reading the link..

http://www.dragbike.com/dbnews/templates/fast1320_z3.aspx?articleid=2196&zoneid=4

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