TBBT
Expert Class
Posts: 114
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posted April 08, 2002 09:28 AM
 Edited By: TBBT on 8 Apr 2002 10:29
Slip-ons/Bolt-ons vs. Full Systems...
Right now I considering the Two Brothers ZX-12R Flange-On w/ C4 Titanium canister and the Yoshimura RS-3 Zyclone (ZX128SOC-TI) for my 12. My goals are as follows:
1. Replace the Gigantic stock canister on my 12 with something more visually appealing.
2. Maintain the manufacturers warranty.
3. Improved the sound of the stock exhaust system. However, I don't want the bike to become obnoxious.
4. If there is some minimal performance gain it's a plus, but not a priority.
5. Maintain the bikes current performance in terms of smoothness. I want to avoid idle hunt, flat spots in the rev range, or other issues.
6. Keep the expense reasonable.
If there are arguements why I should go a full system and will still be able to accomplish my goals for the most part, I would be glad to hear them.
Pictures of bikes with either a Yosh or Two Brother cannister would be appreciated. Especially a Yosh setup - I've seen the Two Brothers setup and it looks good - but I haven't seen a 12 with a Yosh Bolt On.
Yosh's I've had experience with in the past were decent sounding and weren't too loud. How loud is the Two Brothers setup? Is it louder that a Yosh? Is it obnoxious?
Anybody have a good source for getting a good deal on either of these cans?
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AKA: T^2
  
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BigJ12
Expert Class
Posts: 107
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posted April 08, 2002 08:26 PM
Here are some pics of a yosh bolt on. I got a little extra performace (w/BMC filters) but I think it looks way better and the sound is just right. not too loud and not too quiet.
Remember, if you go with a full system you will probably have to end up buying a power commander and taking off the clean air etc.. with a bolt on you can keep the rest of the bike 100% stock. (mine still has the cat and clean air)however you won't get as much performance gains.
BigJ12
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fastestr1
Expert Class
Posts: 300
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posted April 08, 2002 10:01 PM
I removed the cat and put in K & N's with not problems to the tuning.
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Black 02, 8.99 @ 161.95 motor on NOS
Put one knee down for the curves and both knees down for GOD
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TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
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posted April 09, 2002 06:44 AM
I dont understand spending $300 on a muffler when you can modify the stock one to flow just as well for about 3% of the cost of a "slipon".
If you *must* have added power, remove the stock muffler, drillout the mesh inside and poke some additional holes in the baffle. Then remove the catalytic converter material from the header then reassemble and you have achieved the same thing a $300 slip on does. Save your money for a FULL SYSTEM or something useful like a steering dampner.
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Official Charter Member of the RIDERS OF KAWASAKI MEMBERSHIP REVOCATION CLUB
Also a BadAss Internet Forum Moderator 4 Hire!! Come at me brah!
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kawachan
Pro
Posts: 1031
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posted April 09, 2002 07:00 AM
Turbolew, maybe he does not know about that part of the Y2K mods?! Modding the factory pipe is a real good idea. All I ever did to my first 12 was the Y2K mods. Made a heck of a difference. All you really need is a titanium drill bit and an electric drill.
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RED NINJAS RULE!!
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ROCKET J
Zone Head
Goes to water over a dummy!!!
Posts: 602
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posted April 09, 2002 01:54 PM
Question...
TBBT, what are you planning to do with your 12?
Fastestr1, you might want to add an "e" to your tag line.
Rocket
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If I get any smarter, my head will explode!
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fastestr1
Expert Class
Posts: 300
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posted April 09, 2002 03:51 PM
an E what will that do?
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Black 02, 8.99 @ 161.95 motor on NOS
Put one knee down for the curves and both knees down for GOD
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zxguy
Parking Attendant
Posts: 17
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posted April 09, 2002 06:16 PM
Hey.. I modded my factory pipe before adding the slip on.. and it dindt make much differenc in the sound department
Plus my two brothers I got used for 150.00
How can ya go wrong ?
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ROCKET J
Zone Head
Goes to water over a dummy!!!
Posts: 602
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posted April 09, 2002 07:55 PM
Read your tag line.
quote:
an E what will that do?
Or am I missing the point?
Rocket
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If I get any smarter, my head will explode!
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ROCKET J
Zone Head
Goes to water over a dummy!!!
Posts: 602
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posted April 09, 2002 08:16 PM
Edited By: ROCKET J on 9 Apr 2002 21:20
No No No..
Put on knee down for the curves and both knees down for GOD
Shouldn't that be one not on?
Rocket
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If I get any smarter, my head will explode!
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BigJ12
Expert Class
Posts: 107
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posted April 09, 2002 08:35 PM
Edited By: BigJ12 on 9 Apr 2002 21:38
Turboblew wrote
"I dont understand spending $300 on a muffler when you can modify the stock one to flow just as well for about 3% of the cost of a "slipon".
If you *must* have added power, remove the stock muffler, drillout the mesh inside and poke some additional holes in the baffle. Then remove the catalytic converter material from the header then reassemble and you have achieved the same thing a $300 slip on does. Save your money for a FULL SYSTEM or something useful like a steering dampner. "
I will try to make some sence of it for you......
You can do all the drilling you want to the stock muffler and it will still look like a garbage can attached to your bike. No drilling will make it look different. Also the sound from a bolt on is much better than any modded muffler(IMHO) While I agree with you on saving money for a steering dampner, I do not agree on a full system.
Now, I agree it will make more hp, but at what cost? 1st you have to get a Power commander, then have fun getting the right map (there are still guys on this board who havent found one, and it's been over a year!) then you hope it won't take a shit on you!
Well you can't just do that, cuz now you have to take out the clean air, get block off plates, plug air box holes etc... and for what? 10-15 more hp? Ok, if you plan on running your bike alot and you are proficient at it Then I agree with the full pipe thing, but if you don't or you can't launch worth a shit, you now have a faster bike but YOU are still slow. I know guys with VERY fast bikes that I beat everytime I run them, why? because they can't ride! and believe me, I'm not the best rider by far!!
So for me it comes down to reliability vs a few extra ponies.....I'll take the reliability, cuz this bike is WAY fast enough with the right rider.
It sounds good, It runs good and for me it looks good.
I'm happy
BigJ12
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TurboBlew
Moderator
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posted April 10, 2002 03:27 AM
Edited By: TurboBlew on 10 Apr 2002 04:29
I dont know who you ride with, but if they have *faster* bikes, they need to brush up on their skills! (has nothing to do with the bike.
Reliability is not compromised with the addition of *bolt on* mods. Simply improving on what the factory designed. An update if you will.
As for *people* not having the correct map...thats a completely different issue. Factors like proximatey to a dyno, the dyno operator, factory cam timing, and owner modifications, etc. affect the bikes tuning. Ive owned my bike 2 years and its been on the dyno ONCE. (partly due to sheer laziness) Mine runs fine with 14,000 miles and all the bolt on mods available. Ive juggled a few *base* maps and simply worked with each of them until I found one that made the bike run satisfactory. I cant comment on why others havent done the same.
I bought the ZX12 with one intention in mind...GOING FAST!
I never understood why some people purchase one of the fastest motorcycles produced and then treat their motorcycle like an appliance.
Truth be told if you really wanted to be *faster* you could simply keep the bike stock and take some track schools.
quote:
BigJ12wrote: I will try to make some sence of it for you......
Now, I agree it will make more hp, but at what cost? 1st you have to get a Power commander, then have fun getting the right map (there are still guys on this board who havent found one, and it's been over a year!) then you hope it won't take a shit on you!
Well you can't just do that, cuz now you have to take out the clean air, get block off plates, plug air box holes etc... and for what? 10-15 more hp? Ok, if you plan on running your bike alot and you are proficient at it Then I agree with the full pipe thing, but if you don't or you can't launch worth a shit, you now have a faster bike but YOU are still slow. I know guys with VERY fast bikes that I beat everytime I run them, why? because they can't ride! and believe me, I'm not the best rider by far!!
So for me it comes down to reliability vs a few extra ponies.....I'll take the reliability, cuz this bike is WAY fast enough with the right rider.
BigJ12
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Official Charter Member of the RIDERS OF KAWASAKI MEMBERSHIP REVOCATION CLUB
Also a BadAss Internet Forum Moderator 4 Hire!! Come at me brah!
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted April 10, 2002 04:33 AM
I'll chime in on this I guess..............
Being that I am one of the few people that have been on both sides of the fence with the bolt-on can vs. full system deal, I think I can add to this discussion.
BigJ12 I certainly know where you are at and why you went with the bolt-on. More or less it is the same reason I did. It gave the bike a WAY better sound, looked better than the 55 gal. drum, and ran A LOT better than my gutted stock can. Let me repeat, it ran a lot better with the bolt-on than it did with the stock can, and yes that was with the cat removed. There was a very noticable difference when I put the bolt-on (Muzzy) on the bike. Anyone that just took 2 seconds to look at a gutted stock can next to a good bolt-on could see why. You could see right through the Muzzy, virtually no restriction, and definitely provided a more laminar flow than the gutted stock can. Also when I made the choice to do this Dynojet was catching a lot of shit on the boards about the Power Commanders. I didn't want to drop all that loot only to be let down. I was very happy with the performance and sound of the bolt-on, and it was a quick easy mod that yielded good results for me.
Now on to the full system.  TurboBlew has many good points in his supporting the full system. It does perform much better than a bolt-on. It looks better, and one key thing is that you get to shed a lot of weight when you get rid of those stock head pipes. To me that was one of the big factors that swayed me over to the "full system side of the fence". I liked the power my bike made with the bolt-on, but knew I'd love the power of a full system even better. I did a lot of question asking, and had watched the boards when pipe topics had came up. I knew I wanted a pipe that didn't just kill the lowend torque of the 12, yet had good midrange and topend power. That's why I went with the Yoshimura RS-3 Duplex SS/Ti Race system.
My only regret to all this was the necessity of a PC3r. Not the installation, or even the mapping, but the reliability of the thing. I didn't have any faith in them, and still wonder sometimes. But I bought the thing and installed it, in less that 24 hrs. it was on its' way back to N. Las Vegas to be repaired.  It was one of the units that wouldn't work unless the bike was running. I had some inside help (thanks tearinitup!!!!) and got the thing back in 2 days. It now works perfect and the bike runs GREAT. I've been playing with maps off and on since I got it and it's not hard once you get a good baseline. I used the Dynojet Yoshimura map, and Hank's timing map as a base. It runs good on the bike, but the one I'm running now which is a variation of that is even better. Idles nice at 1150 rpm, cranks better than it did when it was stock, and runs like a DEMON!!! Fucking thing is pulling the front wheel up at insane MPH and I love it.
The bike looks better, is lighter, (which helped the handling quite a bit), and runs much better with the full system. It's all in what a guy wants, and what he's willing to spend to get what he wants. The full system route isn't the cheapest route, but for me, in the end it was the best route. Like I said, it's all in what a guy wants, and ultimately, what makes him happy.
In short , it's your $$$$$ spend it on what YOU think will make you happier.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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BigJ12
Expert Class
Posts: 107
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posted April 10, 2002 10:32 AM
Turboblew wrote:
"I dont know who you ride with, but if they have *faster* bikes, they need to brush up on their skills! (has nothing to do with the bike."
That is my point exactly!!!!! I would bet there are more "posers" with all the bolt on mods they can buy, but can't ride worth a shit, than true Fast riders that own 12's.
Turboblew wrote:
"I never understood why some people purchase one of the fastest motorcycles produced and then treat their motorcycle like an appliance."
Who said anything about treating the bike like an appliance? I run my bike like it was made to be run, fast. I don't "beat" it if that's what you mean. However I don't think its over the line to want some sort of reliability out of the bike either. That is why I went with the setup I did, I don't have to "tweek" any map or worry about my p/c taking a shit on me, and on any given day I will beat bikes (busa's and other 12's) with more mods than mine. On the other hand I also got waxed by a gixxer1000 that was bone stock! (sorry guys, but he got me off the line and I was gaining but could not rope him in in time) He was a better rider than me and he launched like a pro and I lifted the front tire to the sky and had to get out of it to bring it back down = race lost.
BigJ12
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Bigju
Expert Class
Posts: 238
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posted April 10, 2002 10:33 AM
I got on everyones nerves last year with the pipe thing. I ended up getting a Full Muzzy system that I am happy with. I didn't buy a PC3r because of all the complaints about durability. The idle hunt on my bike is small and doesn't bother me. Far as performance the bike was completely different after the system was installed faster and lighter. Basicly its you money and bike I say do what you feel is best because you will get 100 different answers from us all
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