psycho1122
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Posts: 1608
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posted February 24, 2002 11:33 AM
 Edited By: psycho1122 on 25 Sep 2003 07:09
HANS TEST/ doesnt work!!!
All information in this test was obtained from a digital volt meter paralleled with the Inlet Air Pressure Sensor, page 2-63 in the Kawasaki Service Manual and a DJ 250 Dynometer.
Dyno Day Voltage Readings;
HOME/GARAGE 3.54 vdc = 28.92 in./14.206 psi. (ambient)
DYNO ROOM 3.52 vdc = 28.73 in./14.109 psi. (ambient)
*note: .02 drop due to elevation increase.
Idle on Dyno 2.75 vdc = 21.12 in./10.3745 psi.(1200 RPM)
*note: every .01 vdc = .0485 psi.
R.P.M./W.O.T.
2000 " 3.51/both snorkels = 14.106 p.s.i.
4000 " 3.49/ " " = 13.964 "
6000 " 3.46/ " " = 13.8185 "
8000 " 3.40/stock snorkel = 13.5275 "
3.41/Hans snorkel = 13.576 "
10000 " 3.35/stock snorkel = 13.285 "
3.36/Hans snorkel = 13.3335 "
11000 " 3.34/stock snorkel = 13.2365 "
3.35/Hans snorkel = 13.285 "
*note: from 8000-Rev Limit is where I gained 4 HP.
In comparison, the stock snorkel on the road at any speed above 40 mph at W.O.T. voltage always comes within .01 vdc of ambient but never above(at any speed). This indicates a "BOOST" of .824 p.s.i. over static (dyno readings).
In contrast, the Hans snorkel on the road revealed these voltage readings to me:
AMBIENT (ignition on/engine off)...3.52 vdc = 14.109 p.s.i.
R.P.M./W.O.T. (above 40 mph) 4th Gear
*note: RAM AIR system does not reach ambient until 40 mph
4000 " 3.52
5000 " 3.49
6000 " 3.48
7000 " 3.47
8000 " 3.46
9000 " 3.45
10000 " 3.44
11000 " 3.43
11500 " 3.43
Airbox Pressure/Vacuum dropped .4365 p.s.i. as RPM's climbed to Redline.
Stock snorkel maintains ambient pressure at W.O.T. throughout the Rev Range above 40 mph. in any gear at any speed.
"INTERESTING....."
Questions and Feedback encouraged and welcome...
If I am unclear on any info, please let me know!
P.S. NO REMAPPING WAS NECESSARY! A/F ratios are automatically adjusted by the ECU from information supplied by the Inlet Air Pressure Sensor.
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psycho1122
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posted February 24, 2002 12:23 PM
PING
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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zx12richard
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The Green Monster..
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posted February 24, 2002 03:33 PM
Edited By: zx12richard on 24 Feb 2002 19:26
So if I understand you are saying that the Hans snorkel performs better after 8000 rpm compared to stock?
Am I correct in assuming that it matched stock below 8000rpm without giving anything up?
The clarification will help others as well, I think.
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RocketRacer
Novice Class
Posts: 82
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posted February 24, 2002 04:12 PM
Edited By: RocketRacer on 24 Feb 2002 16:19
He's saying that on the dyno (static conditions without ram air - NOT real world conditions) he got a 4 horsepower increase with the Hans snorkel installed. On the road (ram air actually doing something!) the stock system performed better than the Hans snorkel - and the Hans snorkel performance continued getting worse as the engine rpm increased.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 24, 2002 05:47 PM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 27 Aug 2002 07:09
Correct Rocket ! Unless someone comes up w/ another possible reason for the pressure drop w/ the Hans, The stock snorkel does maintain higher pressure ON THE ROAD.
Another Top Speed Test today Revealed these #'s:
Ambient(Ignition On/Engine Off) 3.53 vdc(14.1575 psi)
Speedo Indicated 210 mph / @ 11,000 rpm's / 6th gear.........3.45 vdc(13.77 psi). Thus a pressure drop of .3875 psi !
The stock snorkel would maintain at least 3.52 vdc(14.109 psi)which is .339 psi higher than the Hans !!
This test was at much higher speeds than the 4th gear test.
Now if anybody finds an error in my math or how I used the chart(pg.2-63)in the Kawi service book please contribute  !!
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dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted February 24, 2002 06:20 PM
I'm not sure if these were my EXACT words some time ago, but.....
I told you so.
Doug
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psycho1122
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posted February 24, 2002 06:28 PM
Yes Doug you did ! You said something like "Maybe a pound"
That came across my mind as soon as I did all the math!
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zx12richard
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The Green Monster..
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posted February 24, 2002 08:21 PM
I have a question about this test.....
(1) Was the readings taken just inside the front of snorkle or in the Frame(airbox) Itself?????
I don't understand how it can be lower unless readings was taken inside the snorkle and not the airbox.
My way of thinking is with the Monster snorkle you a raming in more air into the same amount of space in the airbox. Therefore I would think it would be more psi.
The finished space(airbox) is the same.
If taken right in the end of the snorkle natually the readings would be lower since it hasn't been squeezed into the airbox yet......
Just trying to figure this out. Doesn't make sense yet..... Thanxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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psycho1122
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Posts: 1608
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posted February 24, 2002 08:52 PM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 24 Feb 2002 21:00
I used a digital volt meter hooked up in parallel w/ the "Intake Air Pressure Sensor" (Factory Unit) located down stream of the Butterfly in the Throttle Bodies.
If you check your Kawi service manual you will see how this is configured.
This sensor determines Pressure or Vacuume in the system.
Example; Buy pressurizing the airbox at the snorkel opening w/ a fabricated plug and using compressed air ( I was sealing up the leaks in the system at the time) I was able to get a voltage reading as high as 4.12 vdc. Ambient reading at that time with engine off/ignition on was 3.55 vdc. This demonstrates the ability of the sensor to also measure pressure ABOVE ambient. Of course this never occurs w/ the engine running, even at road speed/high speed.
I feel that the Hans is "Too Big", it may not allow enough velocity to maintain airbox "charge" to override the engine wanting to create a vacuum environment inside the airbox/frame.
Velocity, not necessarily volume, will create pressure.
Think of this Theory in reverse....Your air compressor pressurizes a cylinder then sends it through a small hose, if the hose was the size of a vacuum cleaner hose-your pressure would drop!
Anybody want to elaborate??...........
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zx12richard
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posted February 24, 2002 09:02 PM
Another question.....
(1) How hard would it be to do another test with the resonators on the stock intake blocked off???????????
(2) Think that might boost the stock intake even more since air has to move straight through with no detours????
I want Max performance bad..... I got the snorkle because I thought there was no way it could reduce horsepower but it may have been a step backwards....Thanxxxxxx
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krexken
Zone Head
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posted February 24, 2002 09:03 PM
Great info. Thanks
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 24, 2002 09:08 PM
All my testing w/ the stock snorkel occured after I completly sealed the leaks in the system, the resonators are also capped off. (these just cancel out intake noise)
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zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
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posted February 24, 2002 09:10 PM
Thanxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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tapani
Novice Class
Posts: 56
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posted February 24, 2002 11:17 PM
Now...
Make the same test with the XZ 2002 model
which has the larger snorkel...
and let's compare the results with our
2000 baby. So why put an extra 30 % air
to the ram system if it can´t use it anyway...
is it only the looks???
regards
tapani
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TeamSpeed
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted February 25, 2002 04:18 AM
An idea?
Isn't it possible with the different shape of the carbon snorkle that the laminar air flow over the nose of the bike changed enough that it is not ramming as much air at higher speeds, an air dam is being created at the snorkel? Alot of cars have this problem, just adding a ram air scoop doesn't guarantee a charge in the air box, you have to choose the right shape and location. If Hans had simply taken the same shape and length as the stock one and made it 10-20% wider and about 10% taller, this design might have a different effect. What do you think?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 25, 2002 05:05 AM
It looks like a 6mb (.09 PSI)loss of pressure as seen at the throttle blade at WOT at 11,000 rpm.
On the dyno it either allows more air to flow or the air flows smoother or both.
I'd say the ducting after the first 6" of inlet is an improvement while the increase in opening size and/or shape of the snout is detrimental in realworld conditions.
So the basic rule of inlet and outlet sizes being matched the same size still applies in this case.
This is all based on pressure taken at the port in the throttle body.
I wonder what the differences would be if the pressure was taken from the airbox/frame? The slight venturi action might not alow accurate actual airbox readings.
Maybe it wont matter?
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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TurboBlew
Moderator
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posted February 25, 2002 05:30 AM
All I can say is FANTASTIC INFO!!! 
Now back to the regularly scheduled tech talk!!!
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Also a BadAss Internet Forum Moderator 4 Hire!! Come at me brah!
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12RPilot
Pro
Posts: 1094
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posted February 25, 2002 05:41 AM
All these "what if"s and "how about"s are making my head spin. I think I will just keep the stock snorkle and chalk up the research to PFM. Really makes me respect the high end racing teams.
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If you aren't an AMA member, you're part of the problem.
NESBA #209
http://www.bikepics.com/members/12rpilot/04zx10r/
 
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mo
Expert Class
Posts: 128
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posted February 25, 2002 05:42 AM
someone explained ramair dynamicson this board befor it went some thing like the air going in must closely match the air being used or the air will back up and create a dam at the front of the inlet causing the air to go around the scoop. I figure if big K thought that it could use 30% more frontal area if you redesined the monster to those specs you would get a better result.
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KW
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 25, 2002 06:02 AM
MO, Yea, that post was my buddy Bill's post.
It was quite long and technical but absolutely accurate.
He doesnt own a motorcycle and as far as I know doesnt visit this board unless I ask him to.
I believe his post was lost in one of the crashes. It was actually an email from him to me that I shared with the board members. I dont have the email saved so I cant repost it.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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TeamSpeed
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted February 25, 2002 06:11 AM
Back to basics
So when Hans first came out with this design, alot of people were concerned about the height interfering with the the front fender. Maybe he should simply take his one piece design, but model the front to be identical to the stock piece. This would increase flow potential because of the one smooth piece, but still utilize the research from Kawasaki. I would expect that it would then be better than the stock piece in both dyno and real-world ram air apps. Then bring the price down to about $300... Everyone wins!
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zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
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posted February 25, 2002 06:28 AM
Wonder what the 02 ramair will do on an 00 model???? Will it bolt on??????? I'm still waiting to see them in the midwest area... No shop here has the yet....
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zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
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posted February 25, 2002 06:34 AM
Sorry guys another question.....
(1) You said the test was with the resonators blocked or capped off... What are the real world results withthem open like Kawi produced it????? Most bikes do not have them capped....... Sorry so many questions but I have the Monster Snorkle and want to make damn sure of everything before I get rid of it.... We know know with your results with resonators capped. So what about the way it was produced with them open.... Thanxxxxx Sorry so much trouble but this thread depresses me..... At least I got it used didnt pay full price...LOL
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EastBayDave
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posted February 25, 2002 06:37 AM
psycho1122: GREAT INFO!!!!
Thank you!
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Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 25, 2002 07:03 AM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 25 Feb 2002 07:09
FEEDBACK
Y2K - Are you shure about (.09 psi) or more like .9 psi ?!
This was the static #'s on the dyno w/ the Hans.
Also - Even if pressure was taken from somewhere in the Airbox/Frame, it would not change the fact that the current sensor location is critical for obtaining correct A/F ratio from the ECU.
Team Speed - I think Kevin Blais in FLA-USA made his this way........(it was also $1000 !!).
ZX12Richard - You would have to use the whole front faring to utilize the 02 snorkel, plus I'm shure you would have to "tune" your bike to 02 spec and use a map to match......
The resonators uncapped do nothing to the power or pressure, they cancel out intake noise(ever blow across the top of a beer bottle w/ different levels of liqiud in them? Kawi made them a certain size to create a frequency that would cancel out the intake noise. This is my theory..........
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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