VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted November 29, 2004 09:24 AM
Why are most people here Conservative?
I hope I fooled most of you because this is not about Politics (But may be part of the problem  )
Never in my wildest, could I ever imagine that this large group of "Sport Bike" Kawasaki riders were so conservative in their thinking. Most of the people here think in so few directions that they are almost ridged in their thinking. Here is what I mean.
To go faster, Bore the cylinders, Raise the Compression, Stroke the crank and if that is not enough, Spray a little Dry Nos and if more is needed, then Wet NOS. If you really need a lot more power, then put in a base spacer and run a turbo. If that is not enough, then put in turbo Pistons and raise the Boost on the turbo.
Here I come along and want to use a stock Bore with extra strong Pistons and treat NOS Like a Turbo and (Heaven Forbid) "Lower" the compression and spray more NOS through a system I feel will work better than most and all I see is, "Why not do what everyone else is doing"! SUpernut was always saying that I should get a Busa "like everyone else has" and I would go fast. Please let me know is there anyone that thinks I will "NOT" go fast when I get this worked out? Compared to a Turbo, does anyone think that spending $6,000 to go the speed I plan is unreasonable?
Last, here is everyone's chance to tell me what they would do and how much it would cost them to make 350 HP
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
  
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted November 29, 2004 09:32 AM
I think you should do whatever makes ya happy vinny. However spraying a 200 shot just doesnt seem that reasonable for a bike....thats a TON of nitrous in such a small frame (talking about the capacity of putting a 10lb bottle on a bike).
Id think you would be much happier with a turbo setup....it has limitless potential...but certainly requires a much more significant initial investment.
Dont get me wrong....dope is an amazing thing...and by far the cheapest and easiest way to make HP...but at some point...you have to look at where you want to go...and what would be the best path to take to get there!
I know you my friend...you are just like me...350 will only be enough for a short time
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Do not taunt happy fun ball!
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WARBIRD
Needs a job
Posts: 2739
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posted November 29, 2004 10:26 AM
Don't know if you can do a turbo for $6000 and get 350 hp..............probably close to it on both accounts........
With the turbo you don't have to carry and refill a bottle, and you won't ever run out of boost. Probably more consistent at higher altitudes and in bad air????
Turbo = higher resale value.
If your "$6000.00" turbo only made 275 hp you could spend a couple more dollars "as in very few more dollars" , spray it with a 100 shot and have 375 hp................. 
And a turbo is WAYYYY more ridable for everyday corner carving.................I mean.........you CAN try to be gentle with the throttle on your turbo bike but hittin' that button exiting a corner while trying to keep up with your buddy's Turbo Busa ( your car is slow) is a sure recipe for disaster...........
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I'd Rather Be Roadracing.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted November 29, 2004 11:28 AM
Finally some Reasonable statements and thanks. First, TB, you are correct about never being satisfied, but the bike is making 325 HP with a 150 Shot and using a 2.5 pound bottle in that Large Rear end on the bike. I found that I am "only" using about 1 to 1.25 lbs per run and that I am getting 3 pounds of NOS in my bottles. AFter 2 runs where i hit the spray at the end of 3rd to clear it out and spray 4th, 5th & 6th I still had a "Little" (Very little) left over. With the set up I am using, we hit the rev Limiter by spinning and other Mistakes about 4 times while on the button using a 150 shot while other blew up using an 80 and 100 shot! (When I get this all worked out and do what I think it can do I will tell you what I did and what makes it fairly safe).
NOS is not the future of this bike or me and not a turbo either. Again, that is what most people are doing. With the Help of one other person, (That can make some gears for me and do a small casting, I am going to take a vey serious look at a large Rotrex supercharger at the end of Next year "IF" I get to where I wanted to go on NOS "This Year". Otherwise it will be another year of NOS for me. Also, I know that "WHEN" I head in this direction that I will have to go "Back" into the engine and have my crank polished and balanced along with some serious Rods and maybe even another set of lower yet Compression Pistons.
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted November 29, 2004 01:46 PM
Simple Vince.
Because the better you build the base engine, the more efficient it is in converting fuel to power resulting in the need to run less of a multiplier in your "power adder". (Less N2O or less boost to acheive the desired power level).
The only limits are your ability to maintain a reasonable A/F and ignition timing control. If your base engine makes 225 hp you only need to add another 50 pounds per hour of fuel and 600 pounds of air (12:1 A/F) and to get to 325. If it makes 180 hp YOU need find a way to add 90 pph of fuel 1080 pounds of air or it's equivalent.
Of course there are mechanical and architectural restraints like bore centers and block height, but in general it doesn't pay to try and make a weak engine stronger as well as it does to make a strong engine stronger.
But hey, that's just me.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted November 29, 2004 02:09 PM
Thanks DM, That seems to be the School of reasoning for most people. When I looked at the MAX a ZX12 cloud make and saw all they had to do to make the power and ended up with about 225 HP (Seriously built engine) and maybe 350 HP with God Like money (With 1350 CC's what is the HP that unlimited Motor Only can make? (Billet crank & Block, Special Head and largest possible valves in the head and Ti Rods and 14 to 1 pistons ) Could I do this for maybe $10,000 and would I end up with 275 to 300 HP? Then when I sprayed it the chances of blowing it up are very high with still a 50 to 100 Shot? (For still another $2,000 more)
I looked at this and my pocket Book and decided to make the ZX12 as strong as possible to handle a 150 Shot of NOS on a regular basis which it has already done. (I will be looking at the underside of the pistons later to see if there is any Shine )
What is the HP and size of the Muzzy Pro Stock engine in Round Figures? could it be built for less than $10,000?
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted November 29, 2004 03:28 PM
The P/S is a 1427. It can be a 1484. In "street" trim it can make nearly 250 hp. The next 50 is a big deal (Dry sump, Dry deck, no starter, etc.) $10K? well not much more than that depending on what you start with, certainly less than 20 even if you didn't start with an engine.
Big valves? Ti Rods? There you go again. Not necessary for power. Our P/S engine used stock rods and in some cases a stock (stroked) crank. The 1427 couldn't sustain much of a shot or boost because the bores are too close to sustain a gasket. But what's wrong with a 1375 at 225 hp with a 150 shot to start? That could be built for what, $5000 even if you got carried away.
Doug
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted November 29, 2004 05:57 PM
 Edited By: VincentHill on 29 Nov 2004 18:00
I was thinking that the Pro Stock Bike was making (I did not know how) bewteen 350 and 400 HP. AT least that is what I thought was needed to win the class. The reason I Mentioned the rods was for strength and weight savings to make the 350 to 400 HP. With the larger bore, there was a little more room for bigger valves and I would think that "No" space was wasted. I am also willing to bet that the compression ratio was over 13 to 1 and maybe 14 to 1
Finally what I am talking about. The clamping area of bored cylinders vs the larger area to clamp the head gasket with stock Bore. Doug, just a yes or no question with money having "NOTHING" to do with it.
Do "YOU" believe that a bored & Stroked ZX12 Engine that has at least 13 to 1 compression Ratio with good stud bolts could substain a 150 Shot of NOS as long as a non stroked and Bored ZX12 Engine that had a Compression Ratio somewhere in the 11 to 1 range with Good stud Bolts and Pistons that are .060 "Thicker" with Flat tops?
I have already run a full weekend with a non controlled NOS system that when I hit the Button at about 9K and the Bike was making 150 HP the entire 150 shot was hitting the pistons within 1 second and less than 200 rpms bringing the HP up to over 300 right there. The bike made over 15 runs of which 4 hit the rev limiter. I have not looked inside yet, but the bike was running the same at the end as it was to begin with and the fastest run was the last one where it was geared 19 / 44 on on the rev limiter in the timing area. When Randall came back from that run, the rear tire looked like a tire that might have come off of Eddie Lawson's Bike after a qualifying lap at Daytona. 
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Spyral
Pro
Unpredictable individual.
Posts: 1071
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posted November 29, 2004 07:03 PM
Most people tend to travel the path that is most taken. Pioneering is difficult and not for everyone. If you succeed you are a visionary, if you fail you are a misguided fool. Tough road to take. Too tough for some. I commend you on your choice to blaze your own trail. Good luck!
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Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted November 29, 2004 08:51 PM
Vincent remember your method is only valid if it works, so far with less than positive results for the money you've already spent, not to mention time which we all know is more valuable than money.
I'm sure you'll get it all worked out in time for the March event because nobody wants you to prove me wrong more than me, so at least it will have been worth it all!
Dont take my advice but at least do me a favor, when your bike DOES GO over 200 MPH, MAKE SURE YOU ARE THE ONE RIDING IT! NOT RANDALL! Nothing against Randall! but I think the first time it should be YOU piloting, Randall will certainly have his chance.
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted November 29, 2004 08:56 PM
ps if your 12 makes 350rwhp on nitrous it will be the only one I've ever seen or heard making that power on a stock engine using nitrous, actually the most I've ever seen even on a built 12R engine on the dyno using nitrous is 295 rwhp before it. ... well you know ;-)
Busas, all day long 320+ rwhp on built nitrous engines, and Turbos well that's another story. N20 only on a 12R is what I'm referring to.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted November 29, 2004 09:41 PM
Yes
Oh, and the P/S hp. is in the 300 + - range
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted November 30, 2004 09:13 AM
quote:
Vincent remember your method is only valid if it works, so far with less than positive results for the money you've already spent, not to mention time which we all know is more valuable than money.
I'm sure you'll get it all worked out in time for the March event because nobody wants you to prove me wrong more than me, so at least it will have been worth it all!
Dont take my advice but at least do me a favor, when your bike DOES GO over 200 MPH, MAKE SURE YOU ARE THE ONE RIDING IT! NOT RANDALL! Nothing against Randall! but I think the first time it should be YOU piloting, Randall will certainly have his chance.
Bergie, you have the Plan! That is why I ride on Saturday and he rides on Sunday. The plan is simple. Work out the bugs and I go over 200 (Actually try to reach 210) Then and only then I put Randall on the Bike to go faster!
I even think this is why he slowed last October 2003 because he saw the Speedo (What was he doing looking at it anyway?) up around 210 and let off so that I could be first!
He is a good Kid!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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rac4it
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted November 30, 2004 04:07 PM
What is that you always say to me...
Oh yeah... I remember!
"You're smarter than you look!"
Good plan
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busaeater01
Parking Attendant
Posts: 29
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posted February 06, 2012 03:20 PM
I know this thread is old, BUT - This is exactly what I am looking at doing only with high compression pistons and possibly a stroker crank 1299cc.
VH, how is this working for you?
Doug, so to clarify, just as i suspected, there should be no reason a stroker crank couldn't handle the same horsepower increase that the stock crank could handle, like a 200 hp shot?
I just got off the phone with Dave @ Muzzys and he says nope, which I have a hard time believing.
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Death is Certain, Life is Not
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted February 06, 2012 04:38 PM
Stroker crank + big nitrous = BOOM.
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Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted February 09, 2012 04:38 AM
quote:
Stroker crank + big nitrous = BOOM.
ever done it?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted February 09, 2012 04:54 AM
Nope. But I don't have to put my hand in a fire to know it will burn me. In the last 12 years there have been plenty of documented accounts of stroker motors with relativealy large shots of nitrous not living. Must I name names Scott? I mean you know too....right? Its not a combination that will live. It can be done, some have made it down the 1/4 mle or entire mile. But just about everyone who has has also grenaded.....at LEAST once.
A.
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Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted February 09, 2012 07:30 AM
Edited By: KZScott on 9 Feb 2012 15:31
my stroker never had nitrous
Garys 1375 did pretty well. I believe he had some valve issues but no crank issues?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted February 09, 2012 07:38 AM
These guys know what they are doing too
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=1&TID=30809
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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busaeater01
Parking Attendant
Posts: 29
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posted February 09, 2012 08:35 AM
thanks scott, that turbo build's looking good
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Death is Certain, Life is Not
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted February 09, 2012 01:12 PM
thx, tune up and attention to detail when building is critical. not everyone can build a P/S motor like Doug was talking about.
boost is far easier
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted February 09, 2012 01:12 PM
Scott, maybe I need to sort of reiterate. I took Vincent Hill's weighing in on the situation as a question for use in Land Speed Racing....not the 1/4 mile. Of course you can get away with a LOT more power over a shorter distance/time period of the 1/4 mile than 1 mile.....1.5 mile....or the Salt Flats. That is no secret. There are guys that squeeze 100 shot on the 1000-1400 sized stock motors at the strip...stock motor setup well...and they make it for a while. How many stock motor 1000-1400cc bikes have successfully sprayed a 100 shot of dope in 1+ miles.....probably ... somewhere in the neighborhood of zero....give or take.
That being said strokers generally have a well known reputation for not lasting as long as their shorter stroke bretheren, all other things being equal. Come on, you know that. I'm far from an engine builder but this is common knowledge.
If we're talking about some of the faster 12Rs out there....so far they have been stock displacement....have they not? The same would hold true for the big turbo hayabusas out there....is that not the case?
Can a stroker motor live with a big shot of nitrous? Absolutely....how long.....I think you can at least agree that it would NOT last as long as a stock stroke version of said bike, whether we're talking 12R or otherwise. It is my belief that if push came to shove a stock bore/stroke bike will be the more reliable, more sensibile build if one wanted to build the bike for big speed with BIG nitrous. Anything can take a small to medium shot within reason....or for a very short distance....but in the context of this discussion I don't think you're gonna make a mega shot nitrous hit last 1+ mile on a big ...1394....or 1427....or whatever.
A.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted February 09, 2012 01:19 PM
I wanted to also add that some people, myself included are trying to minimize the chances of blowing up their engine at 220+ mph. Thats just me. I do some crazy shit sometimes on bikes, no secret there. But I'm not the kind of guy that is willing to keep grenading bikes at speeds well over 200 mph till I find that right combination of stroke and nitrous shot. And for land speed racing....why would you want to really stroke a big monster nitrous shot motor? For the additional HP gained with the larger displacement you could have just sprayed that little bit more to compensate.
But you're entitled to your belief....and I wish you success and safety in your quest for mega speed out of your 12R.
A.
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Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted February 09, 2012 02:32 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 9 Feb 2012 22:36
Ive stated in the past that I would do stock displacement, but it is possible to build a stroker to run on spray.
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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